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#67570 - 05 Jan 08 16:09 Soeharto on his last legs ??
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
Even though he has no court date to avoid, Soeharto is in hospital and the news stations are going wild. Could this be the last knockings for the old boy?

I know its a subject that has been discussed before but it's always good to hear peoples views on the old boy.

Personally I have the champagne on ice. I know there are those that will say at least the corruption was under control under Soeharto but lets face it .... he is responsible for the implementation of a totally corrupt system. I still am amazed when I hear people talking of him like some king.

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#67572 - 05 Jan 08 16:50 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: chewwyUK]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Quoting: chewwyUK


Personally I have the champagne on ice. I know there are those that will say at least the corruption was under control under Soeharto but lets face it .... he is responsible for the implementation of a totally corrupt system. I still am amazed when I hear people talking of him like some king.



Absolutely Chew, as I've always said, it's party time when that evil SOB finally croaks. I think some kind of wake/barbecue would be good. Anyone else want to chip in with any ludicrous comments about him being a good man really and the father of development or any of the usual cobblers?
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#67573 - 05 Jan 08 16:53 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: chewwyUK]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: chewwyUK
Even though he has no court date to avoid, Soeharto is in hospital and the news stations are going wild. Could this be the last knockings for the old boy?

I know its a subject that has been discussed before but it's always good to hear peoples views on the old boy.

Personally I have the champagne on ice. I know there are those that will say at least the corruption was under control under Soeharto but lets face it .... he is responsible for the implementation of a totally corrupt system. I still am amazed when I hear people talking of him like some king.



Were you in Indonesia when the old boy was in power?
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#67576 - 05 Jan 08 17:15 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
I was indeed
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Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#67577 - 05 Jan 08 17:28 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Roy's Hair]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
indeed was i.

and it sucked.
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#67578 - 05 Jan 08 17:30 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
indeed was i.

and it sucked.


Pray clarify a little?
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#67587 - 05 Jan 08 18:34 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
It didn't suck for us white niggers, in fact it was great before the big '98 meltdown. However - dictatorship, corruption, intimidation, murder, autocracy, genocide, anti-intellectualism, bigotry, prejudice, desperate inequality - all these will be the old man's legacy. And let's not forget that Joe Rakyat wants to see that bugger fry as opposed to coughing out his last in a hospital bed.
_________________________
Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#67588 - 05 Jan 08 18:36 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
No captain I wasn't. But I am able to read and I do talk to a wide variety of people. I even to go the effort to meet them face to face instead of hiding behind a cloak of anonymity.
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#67589 - 05 Jan 08 18:39 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: chewwyUK]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
let's all calm down lads. This should be a happy occasion.
_________________________
Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#67591 - 05 Jan 08 18:49 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Roy's Hair]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
you are right there RH.... I would be happy to put on a BBQ / booze up to celebrate but i fear what mark out of 10 you and chris would offer
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#67592 - 05 Jan 08 18:58 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: chewwyUK]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
a resounding 10 me old china, always a pleasure
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Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#67593 - 05 Jan 08 19:20 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: chewwyUK]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: chewwyUK
No captain I wasn't. But I am able to read and I do talk to a wide variety of people. I even to go the effort to meet them face to face instead of hiding behind a cloak of anonymity.



No need to get snotty, I only asked if you were in Indo when Soeharto was in power, a simple yes or no would have sufficed.

Anonymity? Oh you mean not giving my personal details out to a loony?

My choice not to post my personal details for all and sundry is neither here nor there, I don't live in Jakarta, and moreover I don't have the time and/or inclination to breast feed a bar from 3PM every day.

Back to the subject, I was in Indonesia during Soeharto's time and also during krismon, I was interested to find out who else was - simple as that.

_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#67594 - 05 Jan 08 19:28 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
And there was me thinking you were just being an arse. I apologise captain as I thought you were trying to say that I cant have an opinion as I wasn't living here when the old boy was in power.

The Actual topic was what people think of the Old Boy. It amazes me how many indonesian and long term residents (expats) still think he was a good leader and wouldnt mind having him back in power.

Given the number of people he is responsible for killing and the billions of dollars he stole from Indonesia I would have thought he would be the most hated person in Indonesia. But this is clearly not the case
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#67595 - 05 Jan 08 19:29 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
I believe Soeharto also made a vegetarian version of Indonesia, with tempe and tofu chunks in it. Get over it.
_________________________
Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#67596 - 05 Jan 08 19:32 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: chewwyUK]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Quoting: chewwyUK


The Actual topic was what people think of the Old Boy. It amazes me how many indonesian and long term residents (expats) still think he was a good leader and wouldnt mind having him back in power.

Given the number of people he is responsible for killing and the billions of dollars he stole from Indonesia I would have thought he would be the most hated person in Indonesia. But this is clearly not the case



There are plenty of right wing expats who lament the passing of of strong arm dictatorship. Assholes one and all.
_________________________
Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#67597 - 05 Jan 08 19:37 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: chewwyUK]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: chewwyUK
And there was me thinking you were just being an arse. I apologise captain as I thought you were trying to say that I cant have an opinion as I wasn't living here when the old boy was in power.

The Actual topic was what people think of the Old Boy. It amazes me how many indonesian and long term residents (expats) still think he was a good leader and wouldnt mind having him back in power.

Given the number of people he is responsible for killing and the billions of dollars he stole from Indonesia I would have thought he would be the most hated person in Indonesia. But this is clearly not the case



Oh right.

See it depends very much on the circle of people you converse with- and whilst it doesn't matter whether you were in Indo or not during Harto's time and KrisMon, except that you don't have to rely upon hearsay.

Your place and status in society would have a significant bearing on your opinion - plenty of Indo-Chinese will have a party when he goes, yet many Javanese/"pribumi" will tend to have more neutral emotions.

Many Indonesians would say that there existance was very much more stable during the old man's power, if it's true or not I can't comment, I'm not Indonesian, I can only ask them in Indonesian.

_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#67598 - 05 Jan 08 19:48 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
that old stability chestnut. Stability enforced down the barrel of a gun is no societal model that enlightened people should subscribe to in 2008. And of course, the current instability of the country is his fault anyway: 30 years of regressive militarism and an anti-intellectualism only one step removed from the Pol Pot brigade shooting people in specs. Is it any wonder this country is having trouble as it emerges blinking into the daylight of democracy?
_________________________
Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#67599 - 05 Jan 08 19:52 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
WOW .. Is this a topic where the captain won't offer an opinion? This middle of the road answer doesn't suit you captain.

I would say that I have a very wide net of people to talk to as a lot of my work involves meeting many many indonesians. Interesting that you mention the Indo Chinese as I know two very wealthy / succesful business people who love Soeharto and will be devistated. It seems that peoples opinions are divided accross all religions, races and financial status.

The only president that everybody seems to agree on is that Megawati was crap
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Edited by Piss Salon
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#67600 - 05 Jan 08 20:00 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: chewwyUK]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Well she certainly wasn't a chip off the old block was she?

As for the Chinese, well the old man gave them free reign in the business sphere so long as they gave up any aspirations towards political power. Thus he could suckle their Sino teets to his heart's content.

_________________________
Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#67601 - 05 Jan 08 20:05 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: chewwyUK]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: chewwyUK
WOW .. Is this a topic where the captain won't offer an opinion? This middle of the road answer doesn't suit you captain.

I would say that I have a very wide net of people to talk to as a lot of my work involves meeting many many indonesians. Interesting that you mention the Indo Chinese as I know two very wealthy / succesful business people who love Soeharto and will be devistated. It seems that peoples opinions are divided accross all religions, races and financial status.

The only president that everybody seems to agree on is that Megawati was crap


I have an opinion all right.

I certainly won't lose any sleep over his passing, but then I'll hardly be opening the Dom Perignon '66 over it either -it's news nothing more or less, and I doubt whether the old man dying will lift the veil of secrecy and deception until every last one of the old order is dead.

_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#67602 - 05 Jan 08 20:10 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Well I'd certainly agree with that.
_________________________
Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#67603 - 05 Jan 08 23:43 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Quoting: Capt. Mainwaring
-it's news nothing more or less



well it is just more news but it has a deeper symbolic significance perhaps. The old sod's just a symbol, but symbols have power...we'll see
_________________________
Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#67604 - 06 Jan 08 03:10 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Roy's Hair]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: Roy's hair
Quoting: Capt. Mainwaring
-it's news nothing more or less



well it is just more news but it has a deeper symbolic significance perhaps. The old sod's just a symbol, but symbols have power...we'll see


I reckon that you have a bit of a soft spot for Uncle Harto.

I don't think you like Aunty Thatcher too.
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#67605 - 06 Jan 08 06:05 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
when the old fucker dies, this is what we shall be reading:

The father of development is dead.

Venerated for much of his 32-year presidency and vilified near its end, the country's second president, Soeharto, died quietly (day) at (his home/hospital) of (complication of illnesses) that had sapped the former military strongman of his vitality during the last years of his life. He leaves behind the partially grown seeds of an ambitious industrial modernization plan and a legacy of sectarian strife and unbridled corruption.

Soeharto's rise to the peak of executive power came in 1968, in the wake of an abortive coup blamed on the Indonesian Communist Party three years earlier. The ascension of the unassuming, smiling general, the polar opposite of the charismatic and hugely popular founding president Sukarno, took many of his countrymen by surprise, many of whom believed Sukarno had a unassailable hold over the nation. And yet, given the country's political makeup and power constellation of the day, Soeharto quickly established he was more than qualified for the post he was to assume, despite humble beginnings and earlier frustrations.

Some confusion regarding his origins aside, the official accounts record that Soeharto was born on June 8, 1921, to a poor but not unimportant farmer's family in Kemusuk, about 15 kilometers northwest of Yogyakarta. His father, Kertosudiro, was a village irrigation official in charge of overseeing the allocation of water to irrigate the different fields in the village. His mother, Sukirah, was a village woman from a neighboring hamlet.

The marriage broke down just a few weeks after Soeharto's birth and the child was entrusted to the care of his paternal great aunt, from where he returned to live with his mother only after she remarried. And although schooling began when he was only four years old -- a most unusually early age, especially for Indonesian village children of that time -- his formal education was disrupted several times because the young child's frequent shuttling between relatives in his extended family.

From this troubled, itinerant youth, Soeharto was later to remember with special fondness and gratitude the time he spent with the family of one of his paternal aunts, the wife of a senior agricultural official, Mas Ngabei Prawirohardjo. It was here at Wuryantoro that Soeharto appeared to have spent his most formative period. It was here too, through his relationship with the Prawirohardjos, that he was to meet his future wife, Siti Hartinah, the daughter of the district chief of nearby Wonogiri, RM Soemoharjomo.

After completing his secondary schooling in 1939 at the age of 17, Soeharto left a troubled childhood behind and started work as a clerical assistant at a local bank in Wuryantoro. The job did not last long. Soon after he started work, his banking career was terminated after he tore a piece of his clothing, which he said he could not afford to replace.

Desperate for work but not very successful in finding a suitable job, Soeharto enlisted with Royal Netherlands East Indies Army (KNIL), where he began service on June 1, 1940, and it was there that he received his basic military training. But although he reportedly did well and was later accepted at the KNIL military officer training? school in Gombong in December of that year, his real opportunity for a solid military career came in March 1942, with the Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies and the subsequent proclamation of Indonesia's independence on Aug. 17, 1945.

After the establishment of the People's Security Corps (BKR) and subsequent People's Security Army (TKR) -- both forerunners of the Indonesian National Army (TNI) -- in which he took an active role, Soeharto's military star steadily rose. Promoted to the rank of lieutenant colonel in 1945, he distinguished himself during the Dutch military occupation of Yogyakarta, the new Republic of Indonesia's war capital.

The same tactical and strategic mastery that he displayed during the war for independence served him well during and after the traumatic days of October 1965, following the foiled coup in September. And even those who wondered how Soeharto managed to wrest the seemingly absolute power from the hands of his predecessor, Sukarno, and go on to become a near-absolute ruler himself, will have to admit that Soeharto's tactical and strategic mastery in politics was virtually unrivaled for his time.

Under Soeharto's New Order, in contrast to Sukarno's Old Order, good roads were built, factories rose across the country and the banking industry seemed outwardly to flourish. A master in translating complicated issues into a language the common people could understand, he captivated an audience of peasants in the villages. A picture of rising wealth and growing prosperity was painted for the people to refute the increasing grumbles of hardship.

In the end, however, the 1997 Asian financial crisis exposed the ersatz glitter and, combined with the discontent that had been simmering among the oppressed masses domestically, proved too much for Soeharto to handle. In May 1998, Indonesia's longest-ruling president was forced to resign amid riots and popular protests, the extent and ferocity of which the nation had seen only a few times before.

For Indonesia, Soeharto's demise, and that of the New Order he founded, marked not only the end of the remarkable life of a great leader, but hopefully the end of extended autocratic presidencies as well.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#67608 - 06 Jan 08 07:30 Re: Soeharto on his last legs ?? [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Shesca Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Aug 06
Posts: 852
Loc: Jakarta
Seems like I would be the first Indonesian posting on this thread.

I have a mixed feeling about the Father of Development.
My personal opinion of him? He's probably the most intelligent and best leader in the world. I mean who could've thought, being put in his shoes
at that time, to use communism as the reason to do a coup to gain people's support (despite some rumour of the involvement
of a certain country who wants to prevent the spread of communism in SE Asia, but why they chose SUHARTO? ), starting his presidency
using the "people's wealth and prosperity" as a way of covering his behind the scene acts to make people forget about it, using Indonesian's
most prominent uniqueness: diversity to actually prevent them from uniting, recruiting and training his future generals and assistants from young age, shutting people's mouth by bannin free speech to prevent
bad propaganda about him and staying in full of corruption presidency for over 30 years while having people still bragging about his "jasa'
post presidency ALL AT ONCE???
I mean, look around and see how many dictators could live a comfortable life after being brought down?

On the other hand I do hate the fact that he had made us an ignorant nation who are careless about where this country is going and
care more about our own financial matter, who would rather shut up seeing the abnormalities going on in how the country is run, I hate the fact that my Javanese brothers dont like my Sundanese brothers,
and the fact that we are one of the largest natural resources producer in the world, with most of them being exploited while we remain one of the poorest countries in the world

So I guess overall and all, as I said, it was a mixed feeling.
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