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#66510 - 17 Dec 07 23:06 Arrogant terrorists
brad Offline
Member

Registered: 17 Dec 07
Posts: 11
Loc: Jakarta
Bashyir is sick and demented! He is an insult to humanity and civilization and degrades Indonesia down to the dark ages of ignorance.
When will the good, moral and decent humans of Indonesia finally get their wits about themselves and realize the danger that their apathy has created. People of apathy are as guilty of the crimes as those who commit those crimes.
Bashyir, a religious leader of terrorists, who speaks for his religion, has threatened Indonesia with physical violence (“that Indonesia would suffer a "big disaster" if the militants were executed”). He has authoritatively declared the judicial system of Indonesia to be “apostates”.
When will the great caliphs of MUI and NU show some fortitude and decry the vile epithets of this despicable and abhorrent swine; unless of course in their hearts they too harbor sympathy for this admitted leader of mass murderers.
When will the government have the courage and dignity to declare organizations, like the Indonesian Mujahidin Council and Jamaah Islamiyah, to be terrorist groups and start cleaning up this country of this radical filth.

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#66513 - 18 Dec 07 05:27 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: brad]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
Not a great deal you can add to that Brad ... welcome to JC where we like a good opinion or two
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#66517 - 18 Dec 07 07:23 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: chewwyUK]
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Welcome Brad,

We need some new blood, there are others here who are set in their ways and require a differing viewpoint to keep them on their toes...
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#66523 - 18 Dec 07 09:04 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: Dilli]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Yes don't beat about the bush man
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#66526 - 18 Dec 07 09:13 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: brad]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: brad
.. People of apathy are as guilty of the crimes as those who commit those crimes.


EXACTLY!
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#66529 - 18 Dec 07 09:24 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: Roy's Hair]
brad Offline
Member

Registered: 17 Dec 07
Posts: 11
Loc: Jakarta
Maybe we do need to beat the bush man, or more specifically the man from the desert. That is the problem - get islam out of the desert and out of the hands of the bearded patriarchal chauvinists. Read Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji, two outspoken women with modern insight.
Christianity has been generally forced to accept human rights and logic when it comes to the law and morality.

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#66550 - 18 Dec 07 14:28 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: brad]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
Brad you started with talking about specific individuals and specific "Islamic organizations" ... Don't disgrace yourself and start lumping all of Islam in the one boat. As for Ayaan Hirse Ali and Irshad Manji, I am not sure I tust outspoken women with modern insight (not unless they are doing my ironing).
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#66557 - 18 Dec 07 15:16 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: chewwyUK]
flingwing Offline
Member++

Registered: 28 May 07
Posts: 188
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: chewwyUK
... Don't disgrace yourself and start lumping all of Islam in the one boat.

But it DOES lend itself to being lumped together. First, its dogma - its Koran and other documents - empirically state that "Islam is the only one true religion". That, by itself, might be okay, because some religions state or imply similar sentiments.

However, Islam is the only religion that currently - and actively - follows that with the idea that non-believers must (1) convert, (2) pay a second-class citizen tax, or (3) be put to death. No other religion in 2007 still postulates that.

Further, Islam's "play book" - its Koran - has the perfect "no escape" clause. It states that the collection of documents is correct as written and CANNOT be changed. So it's hardwired against change no matter that the world itself has progressed considerably in the past 1400 years.

Finally, the very fact that a BILLION Muslims remain quiet when hundreds, if not thousands, of humans are murdered yearly in the name of ISLAM, is reason enough to paint the entire religion with one, wide brush.

Imagine if anyone - let alone thousands of people (terrorists) - were to start murdering people in the name of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism. You can't tell me that the very next day, the hue and cry wouldn't be overwhelming, worldwide. No other religion in this world would have - literally - a billion people sit quietly while several thousand of their co-religionists murder their way through each day.

Islam is the newest religion. It admits that, itself. However, Mohammad said that because of its newness, it is the only remaining, valid word from our Creator. Mohammad also said there would never be a "newer" word from the Creator. Note: another perfect "no-escape clause".

But in reality, Islam wrote those no-escape clauses to gain the one thing it did not have 1400 years ago and still does NOT have now. That one item is POWER. The reason that one billion adherents sit idly by while several thousand Islam terrorists commit murder and mayhem in all their names, is because those one billion adherents secretly hope that Islam WILL achieve its stated (Koranic) goal of world DOMINATION.

It's understandable, really. If you were offered a chance at all the power you needed to rule the world, would you take it? I bet so. And that's exactly why everyone who is NOT a Muslim must make sure that Islam changes itself, just as Christianity did when it stopped burning heretics at the stake.

But remember, before you go changing the Muslim sitting next to you, you must first make sure they admit that maybe their play book needs updating.

Wasallam!

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#66569 - 18 Dec 07 17:05 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: flingwing]
emmajkt Offline
Member*

Registered: 02 Mar 07
Posts: 698
Loc: here, there and everywhere
ya ya ya... every religion has a flaw. Take a look at bible carefully there's also a lot of bullshit in it. Go wrap your chrissy present!
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#66583 - 18 Dec 07 20:25 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: emmajkt]
Shesca Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Aug 06
Posts: 852
Loc: Jakarta
The government of Indonesia is not in an easy position. Im not a very active political news follower but I am sure there is a lot of politics behind it (besides their " I dont care about this unless it hurts me directly" mentality that has rooted so deeply in their lives) and of course other reasons such as:
1. Being the country with the highest moslem population in the world with more than half of the country being not very educated (easily brainwashed), making one harsh decision might create massive chaos in the society, which of course might lead to some unwanted acts showing their dissatisfaction to the government
2. The other moslem countries might give the same reaction which might lead to tension in bilateral relationships etc. Again, I cant comment too much since Im quite an amateur in this area.

The P.O.V regarding how some group of people calling themselves "the heroes of moslem world fighting christianity" whilst others with the same religion remain quiet is interesting. However, if you talk to those "good" moslem people, you will understand why they are quiet. They just see those people as "terrorists" and NOT fellow MOSLEMs.They dont praise those people and think of them as their heroes. Instead they in fact are very much embarrased by their act and how they use religion to hurt others.

It really is ashame that religions are used by those who are desparate to get what they want and dont know how to get it. To me the tensions between religions, Moslem and Christian in particular, is just the last resort for those idiots.
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#66593 - 18 Dec 07 22:13 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: emmajkt]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: emmajkt
ya ya ya... every religion has a flaw. Take a look at bible carefully there's also a lot of bullshit in it. Go wrap your chrissy present!


If only more people ate their vegetables.
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#66599 - 19 Dec 07 05:15 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Big Mac with fries is murder.


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#66600 - 19 Dec 07 05:58 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: flingwing]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
"Finally, the very fact that a BILLION Muslims remain quiet when hundreds, if not thousands, of humans are murdered yearly in the name of ISLAM, is reason enough to paint the entire religion with one, wide brush. "

So with that thinking the americans have blood on their hands as they were happy to stay out of world war two while millions of jews were killed. only diving in at the last second when they were attacked.

I am sorry flingwing ... The reality of life these days is that less and less people want to become involved in other peoples issues. Thats not just Islam that just a sign of the times.

There is still a lot of bad shit in this world and we all seem to be happy to stand back and do nothing about it (unless it effects us or the poor bastards has oil)



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#66833 - 22 Dec 07 01:40 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: chewwyUK]
naga Offline
Member++

Registered: 18 Jan 07
Posts: 260
Loc: undisclosed location
"When will the great caliphs of MUI and NU show some fortitude and decry the vile epithets of this despicable and abhorrent swine"

That is the key issue here,Indonesian Muslim "leaders" have and do secretly support the extremists (including JI) in order to get their agendas across...
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#66839 - 22 Dec 07 08:50 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: naga]
flingwing Offline
Member++

Registered: 28 May 07
Posts: 188
Loc: Jakarta
I agree, Naga. The "great caliphs" of MUI and NU will not make too big an issue of their adherents' murdering nonbelievers (even with the Muslim collateral damage), because the caliphs are currently hedging their bets. "Who knows", these Indonesian spiritual leaders think, "maybe a World Power Shift could come to pass"? "Negara Mimpi" thinking at its best.

Of course, there is virtually no way that 20 percent of humanity (Islam, i.e., "the tail") is going to change (or "wag") the other 80 percent (i.e., "the dog") with threats and violence. Especially so concerning something as close to people as our notions of the "Great Creative Force", and humanity's place in Its universe.

What will happen, I think, will be a grand accommodation. In the next, say, 25-50 years, Islam will teach/force the West to become more sober. Alcohol is only a minor concern of that much-needed sobriety.

In return, Islam will give up its criminally-insane, arrogant stance that it is the newest, therefore the only remaining valid religious system, and that there will be NO more spiritual systems EVER!

I see two possible scenarios. The first is that Islam will continue goading the other 80 percent of humanity to convert. Then, some of MUI/NU's tacitly-supported Muslim terrorists will detonate 1-10 nuclear devices in the world. You can be sure, however, that after the 5th blast (or 10th, it doesn't matter), Western countries with nuclear arsenals will launch pre-targeted nuclear missiles at major, Middle Eastern centers of Islam. One strike will surely be the Kabah in Mecca. This will ensure that, whatever the number of practicing Muslims left in the world, they will be praying to (and thinking about) a great, smoking, radioactive hole in the ground for the next 500 years (half-life of U-235?).

The other scenario is that cooler heads will prevail. However, ALL those cooler heads must belong to Muslim leaders. This is because they are the ones with EVERYTHING to lose. The rest of humanity may lose New York, Chicago, Washington, London, Los Angeles, and other cities, but the West will likely limp its way back to a life in several centuries. Islam, however, in the second round of nuclear strikes, will disappear forever. It will cease being the problem it's been for 1400 years.

The only way for Islam to survive now is for it to reorganize itself and to recognize all that BS about the Koran being unchangeable. What especially needs consideration are those ayats that say, for Muslims, only two worlds exist: either the World of Islam or the World of War.

If that is what Muslims want to believe since Osama bin Laden (Praise be His Staggering Stupidity) opened his cards too early in 2001, then Islam is going to have either (1) a short, miserable future, or (2) a long, drawn-out, miserable one. What determines which one it is will be how cool Muslims can get their heads before some large group of them figures they'll get a jump on going to heaven, and unleashes their purloined nuclear devices on Western civilians.

So in a way, Muslims finally do have all the power they've been looking for. They can decide the future of this planet from today onwards. That future can include them or not. The choice is theirs. All they must do to include themselves is just stick to the more literal meaning of their "jihad". That is, "to struggle (internally)" to make themselves better humans. I wish them luck; it's a struggle worthy of truly great religionists.

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#66840 - 22 Dec 07 09:05 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: flingwing]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Of course Pakistan has the Sunni bomb and if Iran gets the Shia bomb they may do each other in in a jolly round of M.A.D. sectarian suicide.
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#66986 - 24 Dec 07 20:25 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: Roy's Hair]
Oldman Offline
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Registered: 24 Dec 07
Posts: 210
Loc: Jakarta
Don't discredit Islam, guys!
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#66989 - 25 Dec 07 05:47 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: Oldman]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: Oldman
Don't discredit Islam, guys!

islam doesn't need our help to do that.
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#67200 - 29 Dec 07 01:07 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: KuKuKaChu]
naga Offline
Member++

Registered: 18 Jan 07
Posts: 260
Loc: undisclosed location
nice post flingwing; only one problem:

Islam isn't organised, it is increasingly factionalised which is contributing to the chaos; 'normal', i.e. secular and peace-loving Muslims are persistently bullied into submission and forced to take sides on many issues (especially their women).

Look at the Palestinians, the political leadership is a complete clusterfuck and giving them a degree of autonomy only contributes to clans and milita's being able to even old scores, and then they blame the Israelis for the chaos of Gaza.

The main problem will always be the concept of the 'united front', which may actually be a good thing in the long run; thank god i'm Christian and don't have to tolerate that shite....
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#67252 - 29 Dec 07 18:37 Re: Arrogant terrorists [Re: naga]
Oldman Offline
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Registered: 24 Dec 07
Posts: 210
Loc: Jakarta
Are you a believer of Jesus as God, Naga?
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