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#64672 - 08 Nov 07 07:35 Darwinism in action??
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
There's been some discussion of the Darwin Awards elsewhere on Jakchat and after reading an article about the extremely high maternal mortality rates in Indonesia and other backward places, it dawned on me that this is actually Darwinism in action -- survival of the fittest and smartest.

Excerpts from the article:
---------------------------------------------

Indonesia: Poor maternal health killing mothers and children
Denpasar, 6 Nov. (AKI) – Too many children and mothers are dying due to poor maternal health worldwide, an international conference has been told. Experts attending a 3-day conference in Bali also highlighted how common poor health care was in many developing countries, such as Indonesia.

Indonesia's World Health Organization reproductive health advisor, Dr. Laura Guarenti, said in addition to skilled care, it was necessary to provide community information.

“Women and their families must be educated so they recognise pregnancy complications and seek medical care,” Guarenti told AdnKronos International (AKI).

Indonesia has the highest maternal mortality rate in Southeast Asia, with 307 deaths in 2004, according to the Human Development Report from the United Nations’ Development Program.

/.../

Giving a global view, Professor Staffan Bergström from the Karolinska Institutet in Sweden, called maternal death "a crime of neglect, ignorance, indifference and inaction".

"A society that tolerates maternal death is violating a human right: Women’s right to survive," he added.

"This is the scandal of our time," he asserted.

In regard to female mortality during childbirth, a WHO estimate put the total at some 536,000 worldwide in 2005. Of these deaths, 86 percent occurred in sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia and less than 1 percent in more developed countries.

------------------------------------------------

So the question becomes: Is it really in the global society's interest to have these illiterate, ignorant people reproducing? If they are too dumb to figure out how to read up on the most basic health matters and keep themselves healthy while pregnant, do we want these people raising children? Do we want even more ridiculously dumb citizens to vote for even more dumb leaders to lead these already backward countries?

I know it's an extremely harsh view, sure to get the Politically Correct Nazis into a state of frenzy, but if we can put such "feelings" aside for a moment, ask yourselves: Are these death tolls nature's way of keeping the human species viable -- able to survive?



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#64675 - 08 Nov 07 07:51 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: riccardo]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
Sounds reasonable to me ric ... but we need to think about where should we begin the cull to ensure the future of the master race? Personally I think our best bet would be America but you may disagree.

Call me a "Politically Correct Nazi" but what a load of crap. They aren't "DUMB" people ric they just haven't had access to any sort of decent education.

"DUMB" is making ignorant statements when you have had a good eduction.
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#64678 - 08 Nov 07 08:49 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: chewwyUK]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: chewwyUK
"DUMB" is making ignorant statements when you have had a good eduction.


There was no statement in there. When there are question marks at the end of a sentence that means it's a question. A question, by definition, means the person posing it is not entirely sure about something and is seeking answers.

I didn't say "we" should cull anybody, I was wondering if we are, in fact, seeing nature take care of itself -- Darwinism in action.

Your answers were two-fold:
1. "a load of crap" (brilliant analysis)
2. "they don't have access to education."

Ask yourself why they don't have access to education. Is it their own fault? If it isn't, then whose fault is it? Why, in this day and age of modern communication and access to so much information do they not have access to or understand the most basic survival instinct? That is, reproduction of the species.

Our caveman ancestors clearly understood more about basic health, nutrition and child-bearing than these half-wits who are dying off in the millions. Do we see such maternal mortality and infant mortality among other mammals? NO. So something is terribly awry and it has nothing to do with governments or numbers of schools or Internet penetration rates.
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#64681 - 08 Nov 07 09:02 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: riccardo]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
Ummm -- you seem to think "DUMB is making ignorant statements when you have had a good eduction." refers to your drivel, post cut and paste. It is just a general opinion

As for the rest I stopped reading after the first paragraph.
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#64703 - 08 Nov 07 10:46 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: riccardo]
Gentleman Offline
Member

Registered: 08 Nov 07
Posts: 4
Loc: Bali, Indonesia
you said; "Do we see such maternal mortality and infant mortality among other mammals?"
of course!? Why would you say no? never checked out animal planet on your tv? huge percentages of infant mammals don't make it to adulthood, depending on the mammal, for some it's higher rates than others.
Plus your remark on the availability of information....??? ever been really really poor? you know what that can do to people? try poor and isolated? maybe hard to understand from your position, but try a little empathy and you might get a glimpse of how the other half live.

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#64704 - 08 Nov 07 10:48 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: Gentleman]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
you forget ask how ric thinks "Our caveman ancestors clearly understood more about basic health, nutrition and child-bearing than these half-wits who are dying off in the millions." given the life expectancy and infant mortality rates back then
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#64706 - 08 Nov 07 10:49 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: chewwyUK]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
btw Gentleman -- nice to see you positing
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#64708 - 08 Nov 07 11:01 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: chewwyUK]
Gentleman Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 07
Posts: 4
Loc: Bali, Indonesia
Hello ChewwyUK, thanks. It's my first time here on this chat. I just signed up.

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#64710 - 08 Nov 07 11:40 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: Gentleman]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Nice start, we look forward to more
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#64711 - 08 Nov 07 11:52 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: Gentleman]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Hi and welcome to JakChat Gentleman and thanks for your reply.

Okay let's try this again, some of us may either be a bit confused about the topic or are trying to steer it elsewhere. The term "Maternal Mortality Rate" refers to the number of mothers that die during pregnancy or delivery. It is not necessarily the life expectancy rate after they are born and not the number of baby giraffes that get eaten by lions... Simply put, the ability to reproduce the species without dying in the process.

This is a "modern" phenomenon (in terms of the huge numbers and percentages) which leads me to suspect (not assert or state as an absolute fact) that perhaps Mother Nature/Darwinism/Malthusianism is actively at work here trying to keep the population of the species to only those that are strong enough and smart enough to survive.
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#64712 - 08 Nov 07 11:58 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: riccardo]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
no wonder i was so confused .. I thought you said "So the question becomes: Is it really in the global society's interest to have these illiterate, ignorant people reproducing? If they are too dumb to figure out how to read up on the most basic health matters and keep themselves healthy while pregnant, do we want these people raising children? Do we want even more ridiculously dumb citizens to vote for even more dumb leaders to lead these already backward countries?"
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#64714 - 08 Nov 07 12:11 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: chewwyUK]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
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Dilli buys popcorn and settles down,,,,
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#64720 - 08 Nov 07 12:45 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: Dilli]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Chew, indeed those are the questions I have posed. What do you think the answers are to those questions????? If I put it another way, do you think it's a good use of money/resources to pour ever more tax dollars and donations into these UN agencies and NGOs that are so stressed about this problem?

At the end of the day, that's why these guys like Professor Staffan Bergström are complaining. They want society (all of us) to pour more resources into life-support systems (and fighting against the will of Mother Nature) which will merely contribute to the downfall of our species by producing more people that can't survive on their own.

Eventually, the 'survival of the fittest' will become the 'fittest barely surviving because they are using all their resources to pay for life-support systems for people that Mother Nature does not want to survive'.

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#64722 - 08 Nov 07 12:56 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: riccardo]
doremi Offline
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Registered: 17 Jan 07
Posts: 488
Loc: slouch couch
When one doesn’t have enough to put food on the table, one can hardly think about anything (self-care or healthcare). Maslow eloquently stated that one must satisfy the basic needs, needs for food, shelter before anything else.
I think it’s arrogant to say that these women don’t know anything. Perhaps what need to be done is to educate these women on how to care for themselves and their babies. I do think it’s the role of government to do so.

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#64726 - 08 Nov 07 13:13 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: doremi]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Hi Doremi, haven't seen you around in a while and thanks for your reply.

If you're going to bring Maslow into this, then let's keep it accurate. All behavior has a genetic component at the primary level, and that is chiefly inspired by three instincts that are well-implanted in the genes: REPRODUCTION, security and food.

If a human is unable to reproduce without dying, Mother Nature is sending a strong message. I would agree with you that Mother Nature's laws can seem quite arrogant and likely offend our "modern" PC sensibilities because they are so strict. But it's not like that. Mother Nature isn't interested in arrogance, she's interested in survival of the species. So, I'm not sure we can fight against Mother Nature and not face the consequences eventually.
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#64759 - 08 Nov 07 17:45 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: riccardo]
Scotty Offline
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Registered: 17 Mar 07
Posts: 25
Loc: S.E.A.
Are these death tolls nature's way of keeping the human species viable -- able to survive? – In short, the answer is NO.

The situation of maternal mortality brought on by poor education has been created by the very people who want to use Eugenics as the reason to reduce even further their level of responsibility as part of society. Those in charge do not want a fully educated populace, as a fully educated populace would be harder to control. They just want education for those that can afford it. And the only people that can afford it are the educated. It’s a self-perpetuating cycle very closely guarded by the scared social elite. It has nothing to do with nature; it’s purely a man-made situation.


Do we want even more ridiculously dumb citizens to vote for even more dumb leaders to lead these already backward countries?

Supposedly intelligent people have been voting for dumb leaders in the USA and the UK for years. Both of these are countries where the maternal mortality rate is low. The general populace will be manipulated into a specific voting pattern no matter how “intelligent” or “feeble minded” they are supposed to be.


Mother Nature isn't interested in arrogance, she's interested in survival of the species.

Why would Mother Nature be interested in the survival of a species that has monopolised and abused the vast majority of the planet’s resources for its own needs, without much consideration of the other species on the planet? If Mother Nature is supporting the survival of this species, then is Mother Nature not expediting her own demise?
Mother Nature does not care about the survival of the human race. Nature cares about the balance which will allow nature to continue to exist and thrive. Things were okay before humans arrived on the scene, things will be okay after humans have left the building.


Eventually, the 'survival of the fittest' will become the 'fittest barely surviving because they are using all their resources to pay for life-support systems for people that Mother Nature does not want to survive'.

Do you also propose to set an age limit after which the population submit to a cull? Similar to Logan’s Run? If we are to abandon the less-intelligent because they are a drain on society’s resources, are we not also bound to abandon the old and the sick? Think of the resources that could be saved by not having to research and treat disease like AIDS, Alzheimer’s, Cancer, and old-age.

Anyway, thats the end of my rant.

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#64760 - 08 Nov 07 18:00 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: Scotty]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Nice one Centurian. Like it. Mother nature is in fact callously indifferent to all, just get those DNA spirals shifted across the generations by hook or by crook is all it wants to do. But nature isn't just bloody in tooth and claw, We are also genetically programmed and predetermined to cooperate with each other, basically like all that economist game theory shit....That's why we're done for. This planet couldn't cooperate itself out of a paper bag at the moment. Living in huge anonymous city's dispensing death by remote control has wreaked havoc with our leaders' pre-fontal lobes. I say we throw in the towel now.
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#64770 - 08 Nov 07 19:45 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: Roy's Hair]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Good posts RH and Scotty. This is more like the direction I was hoping for with this thread.

The background to it is this: I've been raised to believe, as I'm sure most of you have, that it is just an absolute given that we must help the poor and oppressed to live full lives with dignity. In fact, I did my Master's Degree in that very subject -- 3rd World Economic Development. After two decades of working with and among the poor via NGOs and UN agencies, I have become somewhat disillusioned in both the people being "helped" as well as the "helpers" from said organizations. Such disillusionment has led me to wrestle with such questions. So rather than terming these questions "drivel" or "crap" or "arrogance", I'd rather have a good discussion and see where others are coming from on these things. That article about maternal mortality and that European professor's outrage were merely the impetus for finally airing these questions.

Specific things: Scotty, what exactly do you mean by this bit, "The situation of maternal mortality brought on by poor education has been created by the very people who want to use Eugenics..."?
I understand and fully agree with you on your point about leaders keeping citizens ignorant. Tony Benn elucidated all that very eloquently to Mike Moore in "SiCKO".

On Mother Nature's nature: I think both of you guys and I fundamentally disagree on what that is. I consider humans as a natural part of the flora and fauna that make up Mother Nature -- all going through the evolutionary journey together. It's just that we are a really tripped-out unique species, and the only one I can think of that artificially keeps people alive -- people that by all rights would be dead if Mother Nature or Chuck Darwin had their way.

Finally, I'd recommend one book and one influential essay that have been bothering me for nearly 20 years as I've continually tried to push them to the back of my mind.

1. The Lords of Poverty: The Power, Prestige, and Corruption of the International Aid Business
by Graham Hancock
http://www.amazon.com/Lords-Poverty-Prestige-Corruption-International/dp/0871134691

2. Lifeboat Ethics: the Case Against Helping the Poor
by Garrett Hardin
http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/articles/art_lifeboat_ethics_case_against_helping_poor.html
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#64773 - 08 Nov 07 20:07 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: riccardo]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
"In fact, I did my Master's Degree"

I think what most people that posted were getting at is that 99.99% of the worlds population will never be able to attain what you have!

Different courses for different horses!
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#64774 - 08 Nov 07 20:17 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: Dilli]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
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Let me add to that!

The sooner the world starts "getting it through their thick brain" that basic education is "cheap" the sooner we dont need to have threads like this at all!

No response required thank you!

Mother Theresa was right. If you don't want to learn, get used to having things shoved up your arse for the rest of your life!

If you are not able to learn, you will be forgiven!

Amen
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#64775 - 08 Nov 07 20:20 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: riccardo]
kenyeung Offline
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Registered: 16 Apr 07
Posts: 2374
Loc: Indonesia
Quoting: riccardo
1. The Lords of Poverty: The Power, Prestige, and Corruption of the International Aid Business
by Graham Hancock
http://www.amazon.com/Lords-Poverty-Prestige-Corruption-International/dp/0871134691

2. Lifeboat Ethics: the Case Against Helping the Poor
by Garrett Hardin
http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/articles/art_lifeboat_ethics_case_against_helping_poor.html


Also highly worth reading for further illumination in this area are:

'No Money, No Honey' by David Brazil.

and

'"Hello My Big Big Honey!" Love Letters to Bangkok Bar Girls' by Dave Walker and Richard S. Ehrlich.

and

'The Lobotomies: A Maverick Medical Genius and His Tragic Quest to Rid the World of Mental Illness and Smug Xenophobic Gits' by Jasper McSpaniel.

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#64780 - 08 Nov 07 22:37 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: riccardo]
Scotty Offline
Member

Registered: 17 Mar 07
Posts: 25
Loc: S.E.A.
Quoting: riccardo


Specific things: Scotty, what exactly do you mean by this bit, "The situation of maternal mortality brought on by poor education has been created by the very people who want to use Eugenics..."?




What I'm referring to here is the manipulation of population development by using education as a tool of those supporting the social philosophy of eugenics.
It's interesting to note that when eugenics was taught at many colleges and universities in the USA, funding was provided by prestigious sources such as the Rockefeller Foundation, the Carnegie Institution, and the Harriman family - all these institutions are well known for their wealth and their prominent part in the social elite. Was there an equal amount of funding provided by these institutes to educate the poor? I doubt it.

As someone else said: "basic education is cheap". The problem is that although it's cheap in monetary terms, those in power realise that the flip-side of providing basic education to the masses would likely have a long lasting negative effect on their positions at the top of society.

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#64786 - 08 Nov 07 23:52 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: Scotty]
naga Offline
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Registered: 18 Jan 07
Posts: 260
Loc: undisclosed location
"Mother Theresa was right. If you don't want to learn, get used to having things shoved up your arse for the rest of your life!"

uhh, that's a verbatim quote is it?

the saucy old tart....

and as the Dead Kennedy's said, "Kill the Poor", i'm all for Darwinism; let's start with the Chinese, Indians, the Middle East and the southern part of the USA....
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#64787 - 09 Nov 07 03:43 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: naga]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
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Lets cull alphabeticaly..

Thank Fuck I'm from Zimbabwe
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#64789 - 09 Nov 07 05:13 Re: Darwinism in action?? [Re: Dilli]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
"Good posts RH and Scotty. This is more like the direction I was hoping for with this thread."


.... if thats true then maybe you shouldnt have started the thread with

"Is it really in the global society's interest to have these illiterate, ignorant people reproducing? If they are too dumb to figure out how to read up on the most basic health matters and keep themselves healthy while pregnant, do we want these people raising children? Do we want even more ridiculously dumb citizens to vote for even more dumb leaders to lead these already backward countries?"


You will probably find you will get more rational dialogue if you used less emotive language. Using terms such as "Ignortant, Dumb and "ridiculously dumb" to describe people who live in poverty on a daily basis sickens me. The quote above makes you look very arrogant and displays a complete lack of compassion or empathy.

You may have I high IQ rick but if you worked a little on your Emotional Intelligence levels you might find you get the sorts of exchanges you always hoped for.

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