Forums and Chat for Indonesia's English-speaking community
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#59060 - 17 Aug 07 17:35 'Porn Made Marine A Killer'
kenyeung Moderator Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 16 Apr 07
Posts: 2374
Loc: Indonesia
Syam Ahmad Sanusi, a member of the Indonesian Navy, who moonlighted as a hitman, was sentenced to death in Feb 2005 for the murder of computer tycoon Budiarto Angsono. Several other Naval personnel were implicated in the murder. The Navy is now claiming that Syam Sanusi only became a killer because:
he watched porn films........

Yeah. right. Not because of the Armed Forces' established culture of soldiers moonlighting as guns for hire. Not because of corruption, greed (he was paid Rp2 million for the hit). Blame it all on porn...

Quoting: Chazizah Gusnita - detikcom

Syam 'Lemah' Setelah Ketagihan VCD Porno
17/08/2007 16:16 WIB
Jakarta - Sebelum menjadi pembunuh, Letda (Marinir) Syam Ahmad Sanusi, merupakan sosok yang alim. Dia tidak pernah melepas tasbih. Sayang, imannya lambat laun melemah seiring perkenalannya dengan VCD porno.

Perubahan sosok Syam ini disampaikan Wakil Komandan Pusat Pom AL Kolonel Laut PM King Kin Suroso di RS TNI AL Mintoharjo, Jl Bendungan Hilir, Jakarta, Jumat (17/8/2007).

Sebelum kenal VCD porno, Syam, kata King, tipikal orang yang tidak banyak tertawa. Hari-harinya selalu memegang tasbih dan ibadahnya tidak pernah ketinggalan. Keluarganya juga berada di lingkungan santri.

"Itu sebelum dia mengenal video porno. Setelah dia tahu video porno, dilihat dan diulang-ulang, akhirnya dia jadi lemah," seloroh King sembari tertawa.

Di gubuk persembunyian pembunuh bos PT Asaba, Boedyharto Angsono itu, yang berada di Pandeglang, Banten, aparat menemukan sejumlah barang bukti milik Syam. Antara lain 5 keping VCD porno. (fiq/umi)


Edited by kenyeung (17 Aug 07 17:35)

Top
#59061 - 17 Aug 07 18:03 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: kenyeung]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
oh, well, that explains everything.
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

Top
#59062 - 17 Aug 07 18:07 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Shesca Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Aug 06
Posts: 852
Loc: Jakarta
smile

I never thought of this ... smile
_________________________
If you can't describe what you are doing as a process, you don't know what you're doing.

Top
#59064 - 17 Aug 07 18:10 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: Shesca]
Piss Salon Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 4039
Loc: Jakpus
I would, at this point, like to blame porn also.
_________________________
place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes

Top
#59065 - 17 Aug 07 18:17 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: Piss Salon]
Shesca Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Aug 06
Posts: 852
Loc: Jakarta
K. You can tell us more...
_________________________
If you can't describe what you are doing as a process, you don't know what you're doing.

Top
#59079 - 17 Aug 07 20:08 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: Shesca]
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Look what it did to me, I have given up this evil media forever, well, until I see that one with Lulu and a horse can be downloaded
_________________________
Menace to Sobriety


Top
#59178 - 19 Aug 07 15:49 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: Dilli]
DCShogun Offline
Member

Registered: 16 Mar 07
Posts: 15
Loc: Jakarta
The investigators knew they had the right guy when they realized he was the only soldier in all of TNI with soft, moisturized hands...

insert your own 'slippery slope' joke here.

Top
#59179 - 19 Aug 07 16:50 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: DCShogun]
kenyeung Moderator Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 16 Apr 07
Posts: 2374
Loc: Indonesia
Hey DCShogun, next time you chat with Pak Try about the Tanjung Priok massacre and the Dili massacre, could you ask him whether he thinks SBY has the balls to throw Hendro and Muchdi in jail for ordering the murder of Munir?

Thanks

Top
#59189 - 19 Aug 07 18:42 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: kenyeung]
yourfather Offline
Member+

Registered: 10 Apr 07
Posts: 136
Loc: melbourne australia
2 million for a hit.

Geez life is cheap....



Edited by yourfather (19 Aug 07 18:43)

Top
#59192 - 19 Aug 07 19:08 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: kenyeung]
DCShogun Offline
Member

Registered: 16 Mar 07
Posts: 15
Loc: Jakarta
Are you implying that theres a connection? Or just trying to come up with one sentence that undermines four different political figures?

Top
#59199 - 19 Aug 07 19:51 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: DCShogun]
kenyeung Moderator Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 16 Apr 07
Posts: 2374
Loc: Indonesia
Quoting: DCShogun
Are you implying that theres a connection? Or just trying to come up with one sentence that undermines four different political figures?


Try was never indicted over the Tanjung Priok massacre or the Dili massacre. So perhaps he has some insight into whether there's any chance of Hendro and Muchdi being put on trial for plotting Munir's death.

Top
#59200 - 19 Aug 07 20:05 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: kenyeung]
DCShogun Offline
Member

Registered: 16 Mar 07
Posts: 15
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: kenyeung
Quoting: DCShogun
Are you implying that theres a connection? Or just trying to come up with one sentence that undermines four different political figures?


Try was never indicted over the Tanjung Priok massacre or the Dili massacre. So perhaps he has some insight into whether there's any chance of Hendro and Muchdi being put on trial for plotting Munir's death.


Hmmm...maybe you have some 'special access' info that finally clears up the whole Munir mystery? Do tell.

Still not clear on what that has to do with Pak Try, Dili, and Tanjung. Your words are so crafty and indirect. I'll take a chance and say that you believe Pak Try should have been found guilty of both massacres AND NOW Hendro and pals are also getting away with murder? And since thay all are roughly from the same generation and have worked in politics over the same period, that they must be cut from the same cloth? And they are all certainly corrupt and dishonest butchers-cum-politicians?

Top
#59205 - 19 Aug 07 22:16 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: DCShogun]
kenyeung Moderator Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 16 Apr 07
Posts: 2374
Loc: Indonesia
"Orang-orang yang mengacau itu harus ditembak, dan kami akan menembak mereka."

Top
#59207 - 20 Aug 07 00:37 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: kenyeung]
DCShogun Offline
Member

Registered: 16 Mar 07
Posts: 15
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: kenyeung
"Orang-orang yang mengacau itu harus ditembak, dan kami akan menembak mereka."


Well, as an experienced military analyst, Im not going to pretend I (or you) know the situation as well the commanders and their collectors. But I have been in the middle of those kind of situations. Very serious and tense situations. With all kinds of information coming in, sometimes conflicting. Add the fact that this was, at those times, a 3rd world, poorly equipped, uneducated/unprofessionalized miltary. This story above (with the moonlighting soldier) illustrates the poor decisionmaking skills of the average TNI enlisted soldier, even now. Often unreliable and sometimes not credible. I can only imagine the environment in which these generals had to make decisions.

I know a lot about Pak Try. Regardless of your feelings of right or wrong, Pak Try was found (multiple times) to have done no wrong. Even with all kinds of research and new infomation, a number of major personalities and outspoken critics of the gov't decisions throught the various hearings concede this about Pak Try while still blaming other decisionmakers. Furthermore, a number of major parties in the early 90's felt he was the perfect candidate for VP.

And if you think that corruption is the reason he and Benny M were not convicted, anyone who knows Pak Try will tell you that he was never wealthy, lives in VERY humble housing, and has given almost all of what he has to building schools and mosques (that aren't businesses by the way.) For some reason too, he inspires nothing but big smiles when he is seen in public, even now. Hardly seems like a personality hated throughout the land. His kids are not connected to any funny business either. And a knowledgeable statesman like yourself must know that he isnt the biggest fan of SBY.

I have no issue with you opining you opposition to whatever authority. As a blue-blooded American, I appreciate the value and purpose of occasional dissent in society. But your little quotes are comparable to sound bytes with little context. I'd rather hear about what you know, not what you Google.

I still dont see the connection to Munir. But answer me one thing. Why ask me such a question in the first place? Almost as if you wanted to make this personal for some reason...

Top
#59219 - 20 Aug 07 08:39 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: DCShogun]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
... So this is what it is like to see a topic discussed without resorting to personal abuse. I think I like it
_________________________
Edited by Piss Salon
Edit Reason: taste

Top
#59228 - 20 Aug 07 09:36 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: chewwyUK]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Try Sutrisno's office is above the Cazbar in Mega Kuningan. But DCShogun (and by the way, a big welcome to JakChat), just because locals "smile at him" doesn't mean much about guilt or innocence here. If OJ Simpson were to walk through a black neighborhood, he'd get the same response from the locals.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

Top
#59240 - 20 Aug 07 11:02 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: riccardo]
DCShogun Offline
Member

Registered: 16 Mar 07
Posts: 15
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: riccardo
Try Sutrisno's office is above the Cazbar in Mega Kuningan. But DCShogun (and by the way, a big welcome to Jakchat), just because locals "smile at him" doesn't mean much about guilt or innocence here. If OJ Simpson were to walk through a black neighborhood, he'd get the same response from the locals.


Hi Riccardo. Thanks for the welcome, dude. I kinda disagree about the OJ reference. If OJ had shot hundreds of blacks, he wouldn't be getting smiles in black neighborhoods.

Virtually everyone 'in the know' has now accepted Pak Try's role in the events Mr. Yeung felt like bringing up out of the blue (for some reason that still eludes me.) This includes current politicians, NGOs, and, maybe more importantly, foreign governments (including the US). This is supported by their constant interest in his input in their respective 'causes' and activities. Many major ministers and diplomatic postings even attended his duaghter's recent wedding. He is in no way being shunned by anyone, not even SBY.

The collective knowledge and information gathering ability of this large set of people and organizations has resulted in an accepted confidence in Pak Try's motives and his ultimate 'innocence'. All this even though he is not in a financial or power/influence situation to do much for anyone. Only a few reporters and activists remain in the other camp.

Yes, he supports a Malaysian-Indonesian cooperation group in the office at Mega Kuningan. Dabbling in these types of goodwill orgs is how he spends most of his days now.

Anyway, I just wanted to talk about soldiers and porn. The two are the basic ingredients for what i consider a good time. I wonder if Mr Yeung owns any camouflage... rockon

Top
#59243 - 20 Aug 07 11:55 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: DCShogun]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
pak try may well be Mr. Nice, but it must be asked: is it possible for *any* Indonesian general to absolve themselves from the actions of the Orde Baru?
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

Top
#59261 - 20 Aug 07 12:38 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: DCShogun]
emmajkt Offline
Member*

Registered: 02 Mar 07
Posts: 698
Loc: here, there and everywhere
Quoting: DCShogun
confidence in Pak Try's motives and his ultimate 'innocence'


Ultimate 'innoncence'?? he was once vice president of suharto, you talking about ultimate innocent? Dude, that is impossible.
Even he's got this clean profile.

Like Kevin Rudd here in Sydney, he got this squeky clean profile, though he just captured as a drunken guy went to strip club in New york. That just lame example.

Political people in indo are worse!
_________________________
bla bla bla






Top
#59276 - 20 Aug 07 17:19 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: emmajkt]
DCShogun Offline
Member

Registered: 16 Mar 07
Posts: 15
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: emmajkt
Quoting: DCShogun
confidence in Pak Try's motives and his ultimate 'innocence'


Ultimate 'innoncence'?? he was once vice president of suharto, you talking about ultimate innocent? Dude, that is impossible.
Even he's got this clean profile.

Political people in indo are worse!


You obviously have no idea about any of the dynamics behind his rise to VP, which is ok, a lot of ppl dont. Do you think he and Suharto 'ran on the same ticket' in some election like in the US? Do you think he was VP because he and Suharto were on the same the sheet of music, shared pots of extorted gold together. The differences of opinion were well known in those times. Actually, you will be hard pressed to fund ANY similarities between Suharto and Pak Try. Do all the googling you want, you wont find anything that connects him or his family to corruption and vast wealth and hidden bank accounts or even the ownership of big businesses. Even his seven children live relatively humble lives outside of the spotlight. Yes, one cannot say that about most politicians here, even a lot of 1-star generals are raking in cash somehow, with their 25-year-old kids that already own 3 businesses and condos in Los Angeles. Someone got rich in those times, but not Pak Try. In fact, most analysts see him as an ineffective VP for a number of reasons such as his desire to try to make everyone happy and Suharto's general desire to not share power. I bet he would have been more influential IF HE HAD been corrupt and played those games. I challenge you to take a look at all the books on Indonesia politics, the Suharto years, etc and see how little is talked about Pak Try, even when he was VP of one of the worlds most populous country! Why is this?

Ultimately, he was always a soldier first. Not interesed in getting rich. That is why he is still consulted and respected by current movers and shakers (here and abroad), even though they know he doesnt have cash to throw at them. Not to mention the millions of soldiers then and now that still love him like a father (and not out of fear!) Your 'guilty by association' arguement is a tempting assumption, but its a wrong one.

But of course its more fun to slam any authority figure(your "political people") in this environment where nothing seems to improve. Oooo...even better lets just hate all Indonesians who want to make the military their career and passion. They must all be blood thirsty killers. And the poor mobs in Indonesia are ALWAYS peaceful and misunderstood too.

Top
#59279 - 20 Aug 07 17:41 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: KuKuKaChu]
DCShogun Offline
Member

Registered: 16 Mar 07
Posts: 15
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
pak try may well be Mr. Nice, but it must be asked: is it possible for *any* Indonesian general to absolve themselves from the actions of the Orde Baru?


Its easy to think that way, but KuKu, it oversimplifies reality. Like any large country, there were thousands of generals coming and going, each with their own story, motives, opinions, biases, whatever. Most of the decent ones came and went without incident. But the poor decisionmaking and poor decisionmaking environment was such a problem here, thats its easy to just give up on deeper analysis and just conclude that everyone was part of the problem. but this just wasnt the case. After my own experiences in the military and govt, I can only imagine how hard it was to lead and control a low-tech army of millions of uneducated, isolated, young males...with guns. It only takes one soldier to start an 'incident'.

I must admit that I carry around the tendancy for the same cynical assumptions about all politicians here in Indo. There's so much wrong, and I feel like Im the only one thinking of solutions. But, as I network and try to build relationships, I'm finding that it prevents me from really separating the wheat from the chaff so im trying to be more openminded. There's got a be a few politicians worth supporting either now or in the future.

Top
#59283 - 20 Aug 07 18:16 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: DCShogun]
kenyeung Moderator Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 16 Apr 07
Posts: 2374
Loc: Indonesia
Quoting: DCShogun
I still dont see the connection to Munir.

Impunity of the retired generals.

In trying to justify the Dili massacre, Try Sutrisno said: "Orang-orang yang mengacau itu harus ditembak, dan kami akan menembak mereka."
After I posted that, you said:
Quoting: DCShogun
I have been in the middle of those kind of situations. Very serious and tense situations. With all kinds of information coming in, sometimes conflicting.

Are you saying you have been amidst a crowd of unarmed protesters and decided they should be massacred?

Quoting: DCShogun
Pak Try was found (multiple times) to have done no wrong. Even with all kinds of research and new infomation, a number of major personalities and outspoken critics of the gov't decisions throught the various hearings concede this about Pak Try...
Current politicians, NGOs, and, maybe more importantly, foreign governments (including the US). The collective knowledge and information gathering ability of this large set of people and organizations has resulted in an accepted confidence in Pak Try's motives and his ultimate 'innocence'.

Komnas HAM chief Abdul Hakim said Try Sutrisno should be held accountable for the Tanjung Priok massacre. After recommending that Try be put on trial, Komnas HAM's office was attacked by the FPI.

Munir had been gathering evidence of the military's policy to rape and murder civilians in Aceh under the DOM, which came into effect when Try was Panglima ABRI.

The US State Dept has questioned the credibility of Indonesia's ad-hoc human rights court. The Australian govt berated Try over the Dili massacre.

Quoting: DCShogun
if you think that corruption is the reason he and Benny M were not convicted


I never said that, although Try did provide bribes in the form of islah. The military also showed up in heavy support at the Tanjung Priok trials. The presence of these noisy soldiers in full uniform was seen as a form of intimidation of not only witnesses, but also the judges.

Quoting: DCShogun
a knowledgeable statesman like yourself

????

Quoting: DCShogun
your little quotes are comparable to sound bytes with little context. I'd rather hear about what you know, not what you Google.

I was living in Indonesia since before Google existed. Try Sutrisno's comment on the Dili massacre is not the sort of thing that's easily forgotten.

Quoting: DCShogun
Many major ministers and diplomatic postings even attended his duaghter's recent wedding. He is in no way being shunned by anyone, not even SBY.

It is the duty of ministers and diplomats to attend such functions.

Quoting: DCShogun
most analysts see him as an ineffective VP for a number of reasons such as his desire to try to make everyone happy and Suharto's general desire to not share power.

The prevailing view among many people during the late 1980s and 90s was that Try Sutrisno was incompetent and stupid. He was the butt of many jokes.

Quoting: DCShogun
There's got a be a few politicians worth supporting either now or in the future.

Not in Wiranto's HANURA.

Quoting: DCShogun
Oooo...even better lets just hate all Indonesians who want to make the military their career and passion. They must all be blood thirsty killers.

You're showing your immaturity and inexperience here.

Quoting: DCShogun
But answer me one thing. Why ask me such a question in the first place?

Because you're Try Sutrisno's XXXXXX! Nothing personal, nothing against you. Just ask XXXXXXX if he thinks Hendro and Muchdi will ever be brought to justice for overseeing the murder of Munir.

You can respond via PM if you wish. Otherwise I'll merely/repeatedly leave it at: "Orang-orang yang mengacau itu harus ditembak, dan kami akan menembak mereka."

Thanks.


Edited by Dilli (21 Aug 07 07:50)
Edit Reason: Kindly refrain from posting personal details.

Top
#59286 - 20 Aug 07 19:09 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: kenyeung]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: kenyeung
"Orang-orang yang mengacau itu harus ditembak, dan kami akan menembak mereka."

for the bahasa indonesia impaired: "people who cause chaos must be shot, and we will shoot them."
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

Top
#59287 - 20 Aug 07 19:10 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: kenyeung]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
I think we need to look in a more balanced way at this.

Mr. Yeung, as you well know, these commie activists and left-wing journos have just flat-out lied about the Nov. 12, 1991 incident in Dili (aka, the Santa Cruz cemetery incident), especially Jill Joliffe, Max Stahl, Allan Nairn, Amy Goodman and John Pilger.

According to the highly respected former Minister Ali Alatas, these foreign journos and NGO activists "were seen to be actively directing demonstrators...".

He personally set up the National Commission of Inquiry at the time, which concluded beyond any doubt that it was not the fault of the Panglima ABRI. "... a spontaneous reaction took place among the security personnel.. without command. At the same time, another group of unorganized security personnel (read: Timorese ABRI troops), acting outside any control or command, fired shots and committed beatings..."

Alatas goes on to state that the "tragic event, which killed 19 disruptors, was not a deliberate act ordered by or reflecting the policy of the Government or ABRI... This has been corroborated by the commission of inquiry."

"... Suharto, in fact, on three separate occasions, conveyed his condolences to the bereaved families."

"...Max Stahl also contributed to the thorough tarnishing of Indonesia's image, especially that of its military, in the eyes of the world."
source: ALI ALATAS, The Pebble in the Shoe: The diplomatic Struggle for East Timor, 2006.

--

Furthermore,
Try Sutrisno, himself, told a group of officers on Nov. 14, 1991

"He went on to say that these disruptors are people who used to
fight as guerrillas in the bush."

However, he went on, members of ABRI who were on guard in the
location of the incident held themselves back. These officers,
he said, showed a great deal of patience in coping with a
situation that was actually goading them into anger. "Our
armed forces are not like armies in other countries. Our
people's army is very tactful."

It turns out, the four-star general continued, that the
patience shown by our officers was not appreciated; on the
contrary, the disruptors became even more brutal. Then, some
shots were fired into the air. "But they persisted with their
misdeeds," he said.

General Try Soetrisno then said that ABRI would never allow
itself to be ignored. "In the end, they had to be shot," he
said, reiterating his words that such disruptors had to be
shot. "And we shall shoot them," he stressed.

The commander-in-chief called on the public not to panic, not
to be influenced and to remain confident in ABRI's ability to
resolve everything. "Abri is determined to crush anyone who
disrupts stability."

source: my personal archives of the apakabar database




Edited by riccardo (20 Aug 07 19:25)
Edit Reason: adding sources
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

Top
#59288 - 20 Aug 07 19:15 Re: 'Porn Made Marine A Killer' [Re: kenyeung]
DCShogun Offline
Member

Registered: 16 Mar 07
Posts: 15
Loc: Jakarta
I fail to see how anyone who doesnt play the bullshit games AND rises to the post of 4-star general can be that stupid. Ultimately ineffective outside of a military post maybe, but not stupid. Unless you consider him stupid for not getting rich under Suharto. But this guy was born into poverty without any advantages, making his accomplishments even more admirable.

There's a lot you'll never know, buddy. Your issues with those times are your own business, but the masses of all kinds have assessed the public facts to the best of their ability and decided Pak Try shouldn't bear that cross.

Mr Yeung, I've got to ask how you think you can assess my inexperience in anything, especially from a website like Multiply. I'd hate to think the past 14 years in the govt and military doin 'stuff' all over asia have been a waste of time. Yes, in the midst of tanks, terrorists, rebels, and drugs.

But the immediate problem NOW is how you approached me. You dont know me. Wanting to bring up these subjects to me (however you view them) in the smartass manner you did, I consider to be suspicious (and if theres one thing i AM experienced in its 'being suspicious'.) And your 'questions' were delivered in a beligerent fashion, out of the blue, unsolicited, and already answered in your mind. Your rhetorical question had no right answer in your mind, so was I supposed to logoff and hide? Or hang my head in shame? What did you expect me to say? Really. No, really.

Im here for fun, to irreverantly talk about bars and Kemang and 120,000 rupiah boxes of cereal, even at the expense of Indonesia or bules like myself, but you felt like changing the mood, and im not sure why. Regardless, Mr Yeung, you HAVE just gotten personal with me. Thank you for welcoming me into your world.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  kenyeung, NetCop