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#52432 - 27 May 07 19:02 Crusades are FUN
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Thomas F. Madden on Crusades on National Review Online

Since September 11, 2001 the crusades are news. When President Bush used the
term "crusade" as it is commonly used, to denote a grand
enterprise with a moral dimension, the media pelted him for insensitivity
to Muslims. (Nevermind that the media used the term in precisely
the same way before the "gaff.") Attempting to capitalize
on this indignation, the leader of the Taliban, Mullah Omar, crowed
"President Bush has told the truth that this is a crusade against
Islam." Yet clearly the crusades were much on the minds of
our enemies long before Bush brought them to their attention. In
a 1998 manifesto, cosigned by the leaders of Islamist groups in
Egypt, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, Osama bin Laden declared war against
the "Jews and the Crusaders." If you didn't guess, the
Americans are the crusaders here. On the day the U.S. strikes on
Afghanistan began, in a live-from-a-cave address, bin Laden declared
Bush to be "the leader of the infidels" in a worldwide
war against Islam. He previously warned that "crusader"
Bush would lead the infidel forces into Afghanistan under
the banner of the cross.

So, what do the medieval crusades have to do with all this? After all, doesn't
the Muslim world have a right to be upset about the legacy of the
crusades? Nothing and no.

The crusades are quite possibly the most misunderstood event in European history.
Ask a random American about them and you are likely to see a face
wrinkle in disgust, or just the blank stare that is usually evoked
by events older than six weeks. After all, weren't the crusaders
just a bunch of religious nuts carrying fire and sword to the land
of the Prince of Peace? Weren't they cynical imperialists seeking
to carve out colonies for themselves in faraway lands with the blessings
of the Catholic Church? A couch potato watching the BBC/A-E
documentary on the crusades (hosted by Terry Jones of Monty Python
fame) would learn in roughly four hours of frivolous tsk-tsk-ing
that the peaceful Muslim world actually learned to be warlike from
the barbaric western crusaders. No wonder, then, that Pope John
Paul II was excoriated for his refusal to apologize for the crusades
in 1999. No wonder that a year ago Wheaton College in Illinois dropped
their Crusader mascot of 70 years. No wonder that hundreds of Americans
and Europeans recently marched across Europe and the Middle East
begging forgiveness for the crusades from any Muslim or Jew who
would listen.

No wonder.Now put this
down in your notebook, because it will be on the test: The crusades
were in every way a defensive war. They were the West's belated
response to the Muslim conquest of fully two-thirds of the Christian
world. While the Arabs were busy in the seventh through the tenth
centuries winning an opulent and sophisticated empire, Europe was
defending itself against outside invaders and then digging out from
the mess they left behind. Only in the eleventh century were Europeans
able to take much notice of the East. The event that led to the
crusades was the Turkish conquest of most of Christian Asia Minor
(modern Turkey). The Christian emperor in Constantinople, faced
with the loss of half of his empire, appealed for help to the rude
but energetic Europeans. He got it. More than he wanted, in fact.Pope Urban
II called the First Crusade in 1095. Despite modern laments about
medieval colonialism, the crusade's real purpose was to turn back
Muslim conquests and restore formerly Christian lands to Christian
control. The entire history of the crusades is one of Western reaction
to Muslim advances. The crusades were no more offensive than was
the American invasion of Normandy. As it happened, the First Crusade
was amazingly, almost miraculously, successful. The crusaders marched
hundreds of miles deep into enemy territory and recaptured not only
the lost cities of Nicaea and Antioch, but in 1099 Jerusalem itself.


The Muslim response was a call for jihad, although internal divisions put that
off for almost fifty years. With great leaders like Nur ed-Din and
Saladin on the Muslim side and Richard the Lionheart and St. Louis
IX on the Christian side, holy war was energetically waged in the
Middle East for the next century and a half. The warriors on both
sides believed, and by the tenets of their respective religions
were justified in believing, that they were doing God's work. History,
though, was on the side of Islam. Muslim rulers were becoming more,
not less powerful. Their jihads grew in strength and effectiveness
until, in 1291, the last remnants of the crusaders in Palestine
and Syria were wiped out forever.


But that was
not the end of the crusades, nor of jihad. Islamic states like Mamluk
Egypt continued to expand in size and power. It was the Ottoman
Turks, though, that built the largest and most awesome state in
Muslim history. At its peak in the sixteenth century, the Ottoman
Empire encompassed all of North Africa, the Near East, Arabia, and
Asia Minor and had plunged deep into Europe, claiming Greece, Bulgaria,
Albania, Hungary, Croatia, and Serbia. Under Suleiman the Magnificent
the Turks came within a hair's breadth of capturing Vienna, which
would have left all of Germany at their mercy. At that point crusades
were no longer waged to rescue Jerusalem, but Europe itself. Christendom
had been shrinking for centuries. The smart money was all on Islam
as the wave of the future.


Of course,
that is not how it turned out. But surprisingly the rise of the
West was not the result of any military victory against Muslims.
Indeed, the Ottoman Empire survived largely intact until the end
of World War I. Instead, something completely new and totally unpredictable
was happening in Europe. A new civilization, built on the old to
be sure, was forming around ideas like individualism and capitalism.
Europeans expanded on a global scale, leaving behind the Mediterranean
world, seeking to understand and explore the entire planet. Great
wealth in a commercial economy led to a fundamental change in almost
every aspect of Western life, culminating in industrialization.
The Enlightenment turned Western attention away from Heaven and
toward the things of this world. Soon religion in the West became
simply a matter of personal preference. Crusades became unthinkable -- a foolishness of a civilization's childhood.


As for the
Islamic world, it was left behind. Even today Muslim countries struggle
to catch up. It is a difficult task, for they are seeking to reconcile
their own culture with modern concepts that are uniquely western.
Invariably this tension has led to charges among Muslims that their
religion and their world is being sold out. Those Muslim leaders
who have dealt with the West have been labeled apostates and sometimes
targeted by jihad warriors. Indeed, the vast majority of Islamist
terrorism over the last century has been aimed at other Muslims.
The division, starkly put, is between those who wish to adopt the
benefits of Western culture while retaining a devotion to Islam
and those who consider any concession to the West to be an abjuration
of faith. In short, it is a division between the medieval and the
modern worlds.


Which brings us back to the crusades. If the Muslims won the crusades (and they
did), why the anger now? Shouldn't they celebrate the crusades as
a great victory? Until the nineteenth century that is precisely
what they did. It was the West that taught the Middle East to hate
the crusades. During the peak of European colonialism, historians
began extolling the medieval crusades as Europe's first colonial
venture. By the 20th century, when imperialism was discredited,
so too were the crusades. They haven't been the same since. In other
words, Muslims in the Middle East -- including bin Laden and his
creatures -- know as little about the real crusades as Americans
do. Both view them in the context of the modern, rather than the
medieval world. The truth is that the crusades had nothing to do
with colonialism or unprovoked aggression. They were a desperate
and largely unsuccessful attempt to defend against a powerful enemy.

That's the
thing about bin Laden, he is a troublesome mix of the modern and
the medieval. He and his lieutenants regularly fulminate about the
"nation" a reference to a Muslim political unity that
died in the seventh century. They evoke an image of the crusades
colored with the legacy of modern imperialism. And they call for
jihad, demanding that every Muslim in the world take part. In short,
they live in a dream world, a desert cloister where the last thousand
years only partially happened.

_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#52438 - 27 May 07 21:09 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: riccardo]
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Riccardo,

Give us a fucking break!

The reality of 9/11 has sunk in!

The reality of world terrorism and the wherefore of what next is something we live with!

We really do not need it spoon fed down our throats like corn to ducks in the hope of Pate De Foi Gras!

I personally like you, but, change your topics, there is only so far you can go with this, your own personal Jihad!

Use your intelligence and prowess more positively, think of something good to say....
_________________________
Menace to Sobriety


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#52447 - 28 May 07 00:47 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: Dilli]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
That's what THEY want, drown all our cares in wine and circus (or in your case a frivolous, PhotoShopped pic) and forget about the real stuff. Like we're in a fucking clash of civilizations and if you're not willing to fight on OUR side, guess who loses?
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#52450 - 28 May 07 04:00 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: riccardo]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Fuck me Riccardo , he paid you a complement , I'm not so gracious [deleted].

There aren't any fucking "sides" , in christianity and islam , in black and white , in east and west , you will find ring pieces and all around decent people , you just need to take the trouble to find it .

You are just like a stick of rock - one arm has "cunt" written all the way through it , and the other has "disenfranchised septic" written through it .

You had better start lightening up , you are making some enemies who will make your life a touch unpleasant , and they DO own the place . I prefer to be considered a touch eccentric and harmless , and know that when I need a lift to the Rumah Sakit , my neighbours (note correct spelling) will oblige , Christian or Islam .
I'd like to see you go to Bangkok and slag the King off ,see how long you last .

Delete this all you like , I'll post it elsewhere .


Edited by KuKuKaChu (28 May 07 07:14)
Edit Reason: ease off the personal abuse, gentlemen.
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#52452 - 28 May 07 04:08 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: riccardo]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: riccardo
That's what THEY want, drown all our cares in wine and circus (or in your case a frivolous, PhotoShopped pic) and forget about the real stuff. Like we're in a fucking clash of civilizations and if your not willing to fight on OUR side, guess who loses?


Hey Dilli , whip your arse with a bit of wet kangkung - will you please stop use Photoshop ? Kai's Power Goo aja ya ?

Riccardo ,please FUCK OFF TO CHINA OR THE USA , Please ...
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#52455 - 28 May 07 06:01 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Strange, The civilisation I live in allows for peacefull co-existence,

What is Kai? Was he a character from Flash Gordon?
_________________________
Menace to Sobriety


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#52458 - 28 May 07 08:34 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: Dilli]
flingwing Offline
Member++

Registered: 28 May 07
Posts: 188
Loc: Jakarta
Good version of the crusade story, Riccardo. I had read a briefer version about that on another net a year ago. Your version was a well-considered piece.

Donít let the unwashed forum masses deter you. As a major power center on earth, the United States had better learn some new tricks from history. Iím surprised and disappointed itís taken the USA this long since 9-11 to get their rears in gear.

However, if the USA can re-learn what events and forces have led to the worldís current situation, there is a chance that the West can modernize the Arab Middle East before Arab Muslims implode and bring the rest of civilization down with them.

Some say there are three types of people in this world: (1) those that change the place, (2) those who observe and kibitz about it, and (3) those who are so obsessed with themselves that they do nothing. Posting this crusades story are part of Category (1) affairs.

Have a nice day :-)

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#52460 - 28 May 07 08:57 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: flingwing]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
well if you like that one flingwing you will love the the rest .... there must be hundreds of anti islam articles for you to read by now
_________________________
Edited by Piss Salon
Edit Reason: taste

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#52464 - 28 May 07 09:59 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: chewwyUK]
flingwing Offline
Member++

Registered: 28 May 07
Posts: 188
Loc: Jakarta
Asia Times Online
Middle East
May 8, 2007

Are the Arabs already extinct?
By Spengler
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IE08Ak05.html


"We [Arabs] have become extinct," said Syrian poet Adonis in a March 11 Dubai television interview transcribed by the Israeli media monitor MEMRI, [1] but ignored by the mainstream Western media. The prognosis by Adonis, the only Arabic writer on the Nobel Prize short list, for the Arab prospect has become more bleak over the years, and his latest pronouncement has a Spenglerian finality.

"We have become extinct ... We have the masses of people, but a people becomes extinct when it no longer has a creative capacity, and the capacity to change its world ... The great Sumerians became extinct, the great Greeks became extinct, and the Pharaohs became extinct," he said.

Poets are given to hyperbole, to be sure, but Adonis (the pen-name of Ali Ahmad Said) makes a deeper point in his writings on Arabic poetry. He argues that Islam destroys the creative capacity of the Arabs, who in turn do not have the capacity to become modern. What he calls the "hell of daily life" is the subject of his poetry, of which a representative sample is available in English translation. [2]

Adonis devoted a long career to creating a literary modernism in Arabic rooted in medieval Arab poetry, leaving a long trail of enemies both among Islamists and secular Arab nationalists. He is reasonably well known in the West. The Arab-American scholar Fouad Ajami profiled him in the widely read Dream Palace of the Arabs, and Thomas Friedman gave him a brief mention in the January 27 New York Times. Evidently Western analysts do not quite know what to make of this most recent apocalyptic pronouncement and averted their eyes. It is easy, but misguided, to dismiss Adonis' doom-saying as an old man's exasperation, for Adonis sees the decisive issues with great clarity.

Nothing less than the transformation of Islam from a state religion to a personal religion is required for the Arabs to enter the modern world, Adonis told Dubai television:
I oppose any external intervention in Arab affairs. If the Arabs are so inept that they cannot be democratic by themselves, they can never be democratic through the intervention of others. If we want to be democratic, we must be so by ourselves. But the preconditions for democracy do not exist in Arab society, and cannot exist unless religion is re-examined in a new and accurate way, and unless religion becomes a personal and spiritual experience, which must be respected.

The trouble, he added, is that Arabs do not want to be free. Asked why Arabs glorify dictatorships, Adonis responded as follows:
I believe it has to do with the concept of "oneness", which is reflected - in practical or political terms - in the concept of the hero, the savior, or the leader. This concept offers an inner sense of security to people who are afraid of freedom. Some human beings are afraid of freedom.

Interviewer: Because it is synonymous with anarchy?

Adonis: No, because being free is a great burden. It is by no means easy.

Interviewer: You've got to have a boss ...

Adonis: When you are free, you have to face reality, the world in its entirety. You have to deal with the world's problems, with everything ...

Interviewer: With all the issues ...

Adonis: On the other hand, if we are slaves, we can be content and not have to deal with anything. Just as Allah solves all our problems, the dictator will solve all our problems.

The fact that the Arab world's most distinguished man of letters has rejected the premise upon which US policy is founded - that traditional Islam and democracy are compatible - one would have expected from American critics a better response than silence. This is particularly true given how large Adonis looms in the Arab world, which translates only a fifth as many books per year as does Greece, with a 30th of the population. Arab writers of global stature are a tiny number, and their importance is disproportionately great.

I do not read Arabic, and have no idea whether Adonis' poetry merits the Nobel Prize (on earlier occasions I argued that a novelist from a Muslim country, Turkey's Orhan Pamuk, well deserved the 2006 award). But I doubt that anyone in the West will make sense of the spiritual condition of the Arab world without Adonis' assistance, and not because what he has to say is difficult: on the contrary, he has the courage to say the obvious: the Arabs do not want freedom because their lives are intolerable. Islam not only suppresses the possibility of poetic expression, Adonis argues, but with it the capacity of the individual to have a personality. It is an astonishing, terrifying, and absolute indictment of his culture.

As a poet, Adonis does not describe the spiritual state of the Arabs, but rather evokes it existentially. The available literature on Islam consists mainly of a useless exchange of Koranic citations that show, depending on whether one is Karen Armstrong or Robert Spencer, that Islam is loving or hateful, tolerant or bigoted, peaceful or warlike, or whatever one cares to show. It is all so pointless and sophomoric; anyone can quote the Koran, or for that matter the Bible, to show whatever one wants. With Adonis one gains access to the inside of the Arab experience of modernity. It is a terrible and frightening one, not recommended for the faint-hearted, but indispensable to anyone who wishes to get beyond the pointless sloganeering of the pundits.

"The Arab poet," he writes, "speaks ever of freedom and democracy as illusions. I say 'illusion' because life itself comes before freedom and democracy. How can I possibly talk about life when I am prevented from being myself, when I am not living, neither within myself nor for myself? [3]

"To be means to mean something," Adonis explains. "Meanings are only appreciated through words. I speak, therefore I am; my existence thus and then assumes meaning. It is through this distance and hope that the Arab poet attempts to speak, ie, to write, to begin."

Life is not possible without meaning, and meaning does not exist outside of culture, especially for a people defined not by political circumstances or territory but by language, namely the Arabs. In his essay "Poetry and Apoetical Culture", Adonis makes the remarkable claim that the nature of Koranic revelation destroys the possibility of poetry, and with it the possibility of life. Before Islam, the Arabic language was rooted in poetry; after the advent of Islam, poetic language became impossible.

When this divine Revelation came to take the place of poetic inspiration, it claimed to be the sole source of knowledge, and banished poetry and poets from their kingdom. Poetry was no longer the word of truth, as the pre-Islamic poets had claimed it was. Nevertheless ... Islam did not suppress poetry as a form and mode of expression. Rather, it nullified poetry's role and cognitive mission, endowing it with a new function: to celebrate and preach the truth introduced by the Koranic Revelation. Islam thus deprived poetry of its earliest characteristics - intuition and the power of revelation and made it into a media tool.

... Poetry in Arab society has languished and withered precisely insofar as it has placed itself at the service of religiosity, proselytism and political and ideological commitments. [4]

Adonis adds:
In part, this explains the dominance in the Arab mentality of what I call "pastism". In the context of this inquiry, pastism means the refusal and fear of the unusual. [5]

This is true, Adonis explains, because the Koran offers a revelation that is final and certain, excluding the possibility of doubt:
The political-religious institution exercised its power as a faithful guardian of the Koranic Revelation. It possessed the absolute certitude that the Revelation spoke and wrote Man and the universe clearly, definitively and without error or imperfection. This certitude, in turn, demanded that the Muslim individual be formed around a faith in an absolute text, one which allowed no interrogation that might give rise on any doubt whatsoever. Under such conditions, alienation is inevitable; the skeptical individual no longer has the right to be a member of the society.

Because Islam - the last message sent by God to mankind - has placed the final seal on the Divine Word, successive words are incapable of bringing humankind anything new. A new message would imply that the Islamic message did not say everything, that it is imperfect. Therefore the human word must, on an emotional level, continually eulogize and celebrate that message; on an intellectual level, a fortiori it can only serve as an explication.

Poetry, the most elevated form of expression, will henceforth be valued only for its obviousness. [6]

With reference to literature rather than theology, Adonis states what amounts to the same thing that Pope Benedict XVI said last year about the finality of Islamic revelation. [7] Westerners will assimilate this view only with great effort, for poetry of devotion is among the most artful and most complex in the literature. One thinks of Dante in Italian, John Donne and John Milton in English, St John of the Cross in Spanish, Friedrich Gottlieb Klopstock and Christian Fuerchtegott Gellert in German, and Yehuda Halevi in Hebrew.

To Christians and Jews, God is not a monarch who presents a final and indisputable truth, but a lover whose face is hidden - perhaps the most fruitful subject for poetry in human history. In the tradition of the biblical Song of Songs, St John conveys love for God in distinctly erotic terms. It is inconceivable for a Muslim poet to address Allah with the intimacy of a lover in the language of human passion. If poetry holds a mirror to our inner life, then the inner life of Westerners is profoundly different from that of Muslims, as different as the concepts of a God of Love who exalts the humble, and Allah who loves the strong and rewards the victorious. I have addressed that subject on a dozen other occasions.

One finds counterparts to the mystical-religious poetry of the Western mainstream only in the Sufi fringe of Islam, but never in its central current. Adonis praises in his study of Arab poetics [8] three medieval poets of the Islamic era whose originality of expression inspires him: Abu Nuwas, al-Niffari, and al-Ma'arri. Abu Nuwas "adopts the mask of the clown and turns drunkenness, which frees bodies from the control of logic and traditions, into a symbol of total liberation", Adonis observes. [9] Al-Niffari speaks the language of transcendental bliss; it "eliminates the gap between the human and the sacred, humanizing the sacred and sanctifying this thinking, poeticizing reed: the human being".

But Adonis' greatest fascination is for the 11th-century Nihilist Abul Ala al-Ma'arri.

If poetry was, according to the "method of the Arabs", "the art of words", al-Ma'arri makes it into the art of meaning ... Al-Ma'arri establishes nothing, at the level of either language or meaning. On the contrary, all that he proposes only casts doubt on both of these: for him they are simply two ways of expressing futility and nothingness. He creates his world - if "create" is the right word - with death as his starting point. Death is the one elixir, the redeemer. Life itself is only a death running its course. A person's clothes are his shroud; his house is his grave, his life his death, and his death his true life ... the truth is that the most evil of trees if the one which has borne human beings. Life is a sickness whose cure is death. [10]

We hear the term "culture of death" often enough, but do not normally have a window into a culture truly dominated by death. That is what Adonis, channeling Ma'arri, provides. The English term "despondent" does not begin to characterize the poems of Adonis; they do not express sadness about life so much as the belief that life itself is an impossibility. I cannot fairly represent the author's translated poems in this venue, but a few examples give some of the flavor of his oeuvre:

Each day is a child/ who dies behind a wall/ turning its face to the wall's corners. [11]

When I saw death on a road/ I saw my face in his. My thoughts resembled locomotives/ straining out of fog/ and into fog. [12]

"We must make gods or die./ We must kill gods or die,"/ whisper the lost stones in their lost kingdom. [13]

Strangled mute/ with syllables/ voiceless,/ with no language/ but the moaning of the earth,/ my song discovers death/ in the sick joy/ of everything that is/ for anyone who listens./ Refusal is my melody./ Words are my life/ and life is my disease.

Readers may peruse Adonis' work for themselves to determine whether I am presenting only its dark side; in fact, it only has a dark side. Misery, self-pity and longing for death are the most common themes in Adonis' translated work, but rage figures as well, particularly when he writes of the United States. One of his longest and most frequently cited poems is titled "The Funeral [sometimes The Grave] of New York", and calls it (among many other unpleasant things) "a city on four legs/ heading for murder/ while the drowned already moan/ in the distance".

When Adonis wrote this poem in 1971, he wanted to see the city destroyed, and appealed to the poor people of Harlem, "You shall erase New York,/ you shall take it by storm/ and blow it like a leaf away."

In fairness to Adonis, he rather liked Walt Whitman, along with many other Western modernists (especially Stephane Mallarme and Charles Baudelaire) who, he concedes, helped him understand Arab medieval poetry to begin with. [14] Rhetorically, Adonis sounds a bit like a terrorist, but he harbors no such sentiments. Although he is a fierce anti-Zionist, he has met with Israeli poets and favors some kind of dialogue with Israel.

But as the bard of the Arabs, or at least the closest thing the Arabs currently have to a bard, he helps explain the remarkable willingness of Arabs to kill themselves to inflict harm on their enemies. Caught between a stifling traditional past and a threatening and unwished-for modernity, the Arabs in Adonis' judgment cannot properly form a personality and are susceptible to nihilism, just as the poems of al-Ma'arri evoked it during the 11th century, and Adonis' poems evoke it today.

The "hell of daily life", the Arabs' incapacity to digest the devil's sourdough, instills a wish for death that expresses itself in the horrible events we see in the news daily. Adonis' warning has become an epitaph for a tomb that is prepared, if not yet occupied: the Arabs are extinct.

Notes
1. The Middle East Media Research Institute.
2. For example, The Pages of Day and Night (translated by Samuel Hazo), The Marlboro Press 1994; and The Blood of Adonis, University of Pittsburgh Press 1971. Additional translations are in progress.
3. The Pages of Day and Night, Introduction, p 15.
4. Op cit, pp 101-102.
5. Loc cit.
6. Ibid, pp 102-103.
7. See When even the pope has to whisper, Asia Times Online, January 10, 2006.
8. An Introduction to Arab Poetics (translated by Catherine Cobham), Saqi Books: London 1990.
9. Poetics, p 60.
10. Op cit, p 65.
11. From "The Past", in The Pages of Day and Night.
12. Op cit, p 21.
13. Op cit, p 26.
14. Poetics, pp 80-81.

(Copyright 2007 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)

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#52475 - 28 May 07 11:26 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: flingwing]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
I love Spengler and hadn't seen this one, thanks! And welcome to JakChat/GRSB flingwing.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#52476 - 28 May 07 11:31 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: chewwyUK]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: chewwyUK
well if you like that one flingwing you will love the the rest .... there must be hundreds of anti islam articles for you to read by now


Chew, I think a closer read will reveal that they aren't necessarily "anti-islam" but more like anti-psycho/terrorist/islamists. I'm fairly sure you know that too... You can paint me with many different brushes, but just strive for a bit more accuracy as calling me "anti islam" could be seen as defamatory by some.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#52492 - 28 May 07 14:25 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: riccardo]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Just settle for anti-javanese then - that at least is accurate .

flingwing certainly has been at the K-Y.
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#52495 - 28 May 07 14:37 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: Dilli]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: Dilli
Strange, The civilisation I live in allows for peacefull co-existence,

What is Kai? Was he a character from Flash Gordon?


Likewise - I can't see how continuously making contentious actually helps . Old Will had the intention that Shylocks speech would help in "the war against anti-semitism" , but he achieved the exact opposite effect - with the Nazi's ending up using the speech as anti-semitic propaganda in 1938 .

Kai - now Kai was the original photo-morphing software available around 10 years ago - anyway , kindly desist from not taking things seriously .

Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs,
dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with
the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject
to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means,
warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer
as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?
If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us,
do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that.
If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility?
Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his
sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge.
The villainy you teach me, I will execute,
and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.


_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#52545 - 28 May 07 20:52 Re: Crusades are FUN [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Seriously, on the internet, unlikely

Up to my nuts in it this week. cannot be bothered with the bullshit.

I'll get back to being stupid next week...
_________________________
Menace to Sobriety


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