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#51699 - 17 May 07 19:47 Bandwidth HELL!
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
As many of you may know, or may have guessed by now, Indonesia's Internet situation is becoming dire. With one of the lowest amounts of bandwidth of any country in the world (and they haven't upgraded nor are there plans to do so) to serve the needs of more than 20 million users and growing, our Internet usage is getting less efficient AND more costly, while in the rest of Asia and the world it is getting more efficient and less costly.

A typical daytime download using Kabel Broadband here in Jakarta is now between 0 and 0.5 kbps while the cost has risen from $30/month a few years ago to nearly $70/month now. Contrast that to California, or Singapore or Australia or Japan, where a typical user can now pay as low as $9/mo for full-time broadband and download humongous music and movie files in mere seconds. Prices are going down and speeds are going up.

What 2 things do these countries have in common?
Norway
Japan
Denmark
Singapore
Holland
Taiwan
Costa Rica


1..They're all stable, happy nations with vibrant economies and almost 0% poverty.
2..They all have more than 400Mbps of Internet bandwidth/10,000 people.


What 2 things do these countries have in common?
Indonesia
Palestinian Territories
Papua New Guinea
Zaire
Myanmar
Somalia
Ethiopia
Niger
Sudan


1..They're all royally screwed up failed states with over 60% of their people living in Absolute Poverty.
2..They all have LESS than 1Mbps of Internet bandwidth/10,000 people.

Many people may naively think that first comes development, then comes the Internet....

But that is NOT the case! Numerous research papers commissioned by the UN and World Bank have proven beyond any doubt a direct link between increased Internet usage and vastly increased economic productivity, self-determination, social equity, welfare, empowerment, democracy and sustainable development.

Jeffrey Sachs the world's foremost development economist has this to say about the Internet: "Electronic commerce and related applications of information and communication technologies (ICTs) have become tremendous engines for economic growth and productivity and are changing the shape of the world in which we live.

"Yet the developed world (wealthy group of nations) is reaping the vast majority of these gains. It is our view that the appropriate use of information and communication technologies can also improve the lives of the 80% of the world’s population that lives in the developing world (backward group)."

"Without a concerted effort by the developing world to get ready for the global networked economy, however, the gaps in living standards between developed and developing countries will only grow wider"

------------------------------

Why is everyone else improving and Indonesia is mired in the backwaters with Sudan and PNG? Because smart countries know that Internet usage and efficiency is the key to the "New Economy", while in the case of Indonesia, there are a number of factors holding it back -- and all of them are related to human error. In short, International bandwidth is expensive and the powers that be are in collusion with businesses to keep it expensive for their own personal gain, but at what cost? Nothing short of backwardness and poverty for the nation as a whole.

These are the same guys who can recite Pancasila, sing Indonesia Raya and consider themselves staunch nationalists to the bone. But what kind of "nationalist" would allow his/her NATION to become a backward, impoverished failed state? The myopic, greedy, ignorant, corrupt kind who are calling the shots now, that's who. And why don't private businesspeople do it on their own? Same things -- myopia, greed and collusion.

If you owned an ISP and your dial-up clients paid per minute and it takes 15 minutes to log on, open up yahoo mail and download messages as opposed to 5 minutes, what would that look like on the balance sheet? It would "look" like a 67% loss of income. But in their greed and short-sightedness, what they don't see is that people will spend longer time online if it's an enjoyable experience where they can send more emails, check out the new releases of streaming music videos, watch an entire track meet in real-time streaming video etc. etc...

Something has got to be done. Maybe we can get the FPI on side for this one, and instruct them to hold a raucous demo outside the presidential palace -- we can entice them with all those cool islamic websites that will teach them bomb-making skills.


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#51701 - 17 May 07 21:57 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: riccardo]
The Great Gonzo Offline
Member+

Registered: 13 Dec 06
Posts: 134
Loc: Big Durian
Weren't your A-listed countries as well as your F-listed (fucked) countries as above both in the same categories in the early 90's and prior when the internet was not widely available anywhere?

I agree that these countries, without a fast and consistent access to the Net, are missing out on a huge segment of the economy, and as stated:
Quote:
Numerous research papers commissioned by the UN and World Bank have proven beyond any doubt a direct link between increased Internet usage and vastly increased economic productivity, self-determination, social equity, welfare, empowerment, democracy and sustainable development.


But... there is obviously more to it... these countries were poor and impoverished before the internet...


Edited by The Great Gonzo (17 May 07 21:57)
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#51707 - 18 May 07 09:12 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: The Great Gonzo]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
Couple of points that have to be considered. Indonesia is spread out over hundreds of islands that therefore building network is always going to be challenging.

The second thing to take in to consideration is the download speeds are restricted to some extent by other countries. You will have to get a technical person to explain how it works but I am sure countries like America restrict the bandwidth between USA and Indonesia because they consider us a third world country or a bunch of terrorists.

With that said I totally agree that more effort has to be made to roll out a decent internet service. Personally I think Indonesia is in a perfect position to utalise 3G to give fast effective coverage. The government may also like to look at helping with the cost of connections in certain areas of Indonesian.
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#51710 - 18 May 07 09:16 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: The Great Gonzo]
doremi Offline
Member+++

Registered: 17 Jan 07
Posts: 488
Loc: slouch couch
"Contrast that to California, or Singapore or Australia or Japan, where a typical user can now pay as low as $9/mo for full-time broadband and download humongous music and movie files in mere seconds."

I'd like to pay $9/month for broadband-that's cheap! Who is the provider, may be I'll give them a call and switch.


Edited by nwgirl (18 May 07 09:18)
Edit Reason: can't work that damn quote

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#51712 - 18 May 07 09:26 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: doremi]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Cablevision are shite-hawks of the absolute highest order. At a more sinister level though - the corrupt business and political model in RI would perhaps be seriously challenged by the techno egalitarianism that better net access would engender. The elites here perhaps don't WANT Indos to have good Internet, just as they don't want them to have a decent education.
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#51722 - 18 May 07 12:33 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: chewwyUK]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: chewwyUK
The second thing to take in to consideration is the download speeds are restricted to some extent by other countries. You will have to get a technical person to explain how it works but I am sure countries like America restrict the bandwidth between USA and Indonesia because they consider us a third world country or a bunch of terrorists.


Pure rubbish! AGAIN you are merely pandering to and playing the sweet music that all the yank-haters so love to hear.

Firstly, "America" has what you socialists will never fully understand -- almost ZERO gov't influence on the decisions of private businesses.

Now a quick lesson in economics: Bandwidth is bought and sold just like any other commodity. Private US companies have a lot of it to sell. Indonesia is the 4th largest nation in the world, and of all the nations with over 100m population is the LEAST penetrated, thus it potentially has a LOT to buy. SIMPLE: Supply AND Demand!

The US gov't benefits from the taxes it reaps from private companies, and it is a very serious US gov't policy to PUSH things like IT and globalization specifically on countries like Indonesia as they theorize that those things will keep countries like Indonesia closer to/within the USA's sphere of influence.

Sorry Chew, I hate to disagree with you again, but you couldn't have got this more wrong.


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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#51723 - 18 May 07 12:41 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: riccardo]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
well like I said riccardo you will have to actually ask a technical person as I don't have the knowledge on this one. I am just recalling a vague conversation I had with an expat in one of the multi-national vendors. I am sure he was saying that the companies who own the international pipes restricted bandwidth to countries such as Indonesia because of fears of spamming, internet piracy --- anyway ... might just be an idea to look in to what i am saying ric instead of just dismissing it.
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#51726 - 18 May 07 12:59 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: chewwyUK]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
So which is it? A "technical" problem or US gov't policy thing?
The technical side of it is not nearly as difficult as you seem to think. It's a matter of willingness on the buyer's end to have a commitment to setting up the necessary infrastructure and encourage more local users to get online. When there is at least the commitment to those 2 things, THEN suppliers will be beating each other up to get a share of this market -- and you can be sure they'll probably be private yank companies urged on by the US gov't.


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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#51727 - 18 May 07 13:00 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: chewwyUK]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
of course ric even if I am wrong they delay in getting these networks could be linked to the economic crises. The international bandwidth must be paid for in USD while being charged in IDR. I am sure a few companies felt the hurt in the economic crises and maybe are hesitant about signing massive USD contracts in case the same thing happens.

But whatever the reason ric I agree something has to be done to improve the internet connections in Indonesia.
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#51728 - 18 May 07 13:00 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: riccardo]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
The speed of you connection means nothing , the routing that your ISP uses means everything , and for anyone to qoute speeds achieved while downloading from a mule client is meaningless .

I have an 8M connection , so what ? my contention ratio is 20 , which potentially means I share that connection with 20 other people - in Indo , if I am lucky I have a 2M service , shared with most of JATIM .

Try the following - tracert to JakChat and see how many hops it takes you to get out of Indo , and also see how you are routed -
And for what is is worth , almost all of the trafic between Indo and the US is sniffed .


Attachments
1798-tracert.JPG


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I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
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#51729 - 18 May 07 13:03 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Broadband only becomes cheap and widespread when dialup reached saturation point - there is a captive market ready to be exploited - this hasn't ever occured in Indo .
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I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#51730 - 18 May 07 13:08 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: chewwyUK]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
in response to your question ric I would have to say again "you would have to check with an expert" I am just recalling a conversation i had some time ago.
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#51731 - 18 May 07 13:10 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: chewwyUK]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
so the answer to better connection captain???
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#51732 - 18 May 07 13:13 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: chewwyUK]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: chewwyUK
anyway ... might just be an idea to look in to what i am saying ric instead of just dismissing it.


I find it more than just a little bit presumptuous that you think I have not "looked into it".

It just so happens that I was the main researcher and author of a key report on this very subject.
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#51733 - 18 May 07 13:20 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: riccardo]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
okay -- so in answer to my concern about the bandwidth restrictions imposed on the pipes running between US and Indonesia what was the answer?

Once again Ric you seem to think people are attacking you and the USA. It is simply not the case. I suggested one reason why Indonesia has slow connection speeds to international sites. You dismissed this within seconds so i asked you to look in to it to see where this information had come from (nothing presumptuous about that)
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#51734 - 18 May 07 13:32 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: chewwyUK]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: chewwyUK
so the answer to better connection captain???


What are you looking to do ? 3G would seem to offer a solution where available - if there were enough to share it then satellite may provide a solution , hardware costs are reducing .

Who is your service provider at the moment?


_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#51735 - 18 May 07 13:32 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: chewwyUK]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Your question has already been answered above in the original post and follow-up responses. To sum up, the problem is the lack of WILL on the Indonesian end to promote, encourage a critical mass for this untapped market demand. Take that restriction away and basic economics kicks in and the "pipes" get a lot bigger and bandwidth will flow.

Quote:
In short, International bandwidth is expensive and the powers that be (Indonesian politicians and businesspeople) are in collusion with businesses to keep it expensive for their own personal gain, but at what cost? Nothing short of backwardness and poverty for the nation as a whole.

But what kind of [Indonesian] "nationalist" would allow his/her NATION to become a backward, impoverished failed state? The myopic, greedy, ignorant, corrupt kind who are calling the shots now, that's who. And why don't private businesspeople do it on their own? Same things -- myopia, greed and collusion.

It's a matter of willingness on the buyer's end to have a commitment to setting up the necessary infrastructure and encourage more local users to get online. When there is at least the commitment to those 2 things, THEN suppliers will be beating each other up to get a share of this market...


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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#51759 - 18 May 07 19:17 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: riccardo]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Indonesia's Internet is routed via under sea cables through Singapore unless I'm mistaken. Bottleneck issues there I think. More cables needed.
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#51766 - 18 May 07 20:36 Re: Bandwidth HELL! [Re: Roy's Hair]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
And via Taiwan too , but anyway , everyone has been telt
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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