Gentlemen, Revolutionaries, Scholars & Bules
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#50509 - 30 Apr 07 19:19 That Ain't Cricket
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Meanwhile in Cricket News:
The Aussies resoundingly defeated Sri Lanka for the World Cup title.
************************************
AND it's appearing as if Bob Woolmer, the murdered Pakistan coach, may have been the victim of muzzie anger....

Mr Woolmer was caught up in disputes with some members of the Pakistan side about their alleged preoccupation with their religion before his murder.

An investigation for the BBC Panorama programme, to be screened tonight, suggests that the Pakistan cricket coach objected to strict Muslim team mates who seemed "more interested in praying not playing" at the World Cup in Jamiaca.

The Pakistan team's former media manager, PJ Mir, revealed there were clashes over the Pakistan team's priorities.

Several senior members of the squad had become members of the strict Muslim movement Tablighi Jamaat.

Mr Mir claimed: "Bob had his reservations that the boys, rather than focusing on the religious aspect they ought to be focusing more on cricket.

"He wasn't particularly pleased when players were going out to say their prayers in the middle of the game... and a substitute was coming in. This continued. He was totally against it."

When Mr Mir blamed the team's poor performance on them focusing too much on religion he said his comments were greeted with anger. He claimed that a fatwah was issued against him, forcing him to flee the country.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/30/nwoolmer30.xml
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

Top
#50514 - 30 Apr 07 19:34 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
sounds eminently plausible ... but is it true? is there evidence for this?
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

Top
#50515 - 30 Apr 07 19:44 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
sounds eminently plausible ... but is it true? is there evidence for this?


Possible ? Yes , Plausable ? maybe , True ? What do you think ?
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

Top
#50551 - 01 May 07 08:36 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: riccardo]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quote:
Several senior members of the squad had become members of the strict Muslim movement Tablighi Jamaat.


Tablighi Jamaat has always adopted an extreme interpretation of Sunni Islam, but in the past two decades, it has radicalized to the point where it is now a driving force of Islamic extremism and a major recruiting agency for terrorist causes worldwide. For a majority of young Muslim extremists, joining Tablighi Jamaat is the first step on the road to extremism.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

Top
#50553 - 01 May 07 08:49 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: riccardo]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Pakistani and Indian observers believe, for instance, that Tablighi Jamaat was instrumental in founding Harakat ul-Mujahideen.

"The two organizations together make up a truly international network of genuine jihadi Muslims," one senior Harakat ul-Mujahideen official said.

The full analysis of TJ can be found here:
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

Top
#50555 - 01 May 07 09:07 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: riccardo]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
'Radicals wanted Woolmer dead'

Eugene Gunning, Die Burger
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2106862,00.html

Cape Town - Allegations that radical Muslims wanted to carry out a fatwa that was issued against Bob Woolmer, were widely reported on Monday while his heart-sore family were making arrangements to bury the Pakistan coach this week.

A participant in the BBC programme, Panorama, claimed on Monday night that aggrieved radical Muslims were intent on carrying out a fatwa on Woolmer. ... sources said it could amount to a death sentence, in certain instances.

'More praying than playing'

It was reported from London that the media manager of the Pakistan cricket team, Pervez Jamil Mir, told Panorama that he suspected a fatwa had been issued against Woolmer.

He reportedly shared Woolmer's view that certain senior members of the Pakistan team were more interested in praying, than in playing cricket.

Mir had to flee Pakistan after a fatwa was issued against him.

It followed his report to the cricket board that the team's obsession with religion may have been responsible for its poor performance in the Cricket World Cup.

"Let's put it this way: If Bob said what I'm saying now, then I think there was a fatwa against him, too."

He added: "What I mean is that Bob had reservations about men who were focused on the religious aspect rather than cricket."

"He was especially unimpressed if players prayed during a match when substitutes were sent on to the field."

"It went on, (but) he was totally opposed to it," said Mir.

The programme suggested that some of the players were involved with a radical Muslim movement, called Tablighi Jamaat.

Inzaman-ul-Haq, who resigned his captaincy when Pakistan suffered a shock defeat against Ireland, rejected the allegations.

He took a sideswipe against Mir, saying "P J Mir tried to besmirch our religion, Islam. The Pakistan Cricket Board should act against him.

"If that doesn't happen, I will institute legal steps against him in terms of Islamic law."
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

Top
#50558 - 01 May 07 09:24 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: riccardo]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
Hmm ... All murder aside it sounds like our man Bob should have buggered off from the Job if he didn't like his players praying. I mean correct me if I am wrong but Pakistan is a Muslim country and he should respect their culture and beliefs.

Another thing I have noticed about overseas reporting is that they seem to love referring to anybody who follows their religion as being a "radical Muslim" The people in my office don't drink, believe in Islam and are forever praying. Does that mean they are radical?
_________________________
Edited by Piss Salon
Edit Reason: taste

Top
#50584 - 01 May 07 11:45 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: chewwyUK]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: chewwyUK
The people in my office don't drink, believe in Islam and are forever praying. Does that mean they are radical?


No it doesn't. But it does make you look awfully patronizing to even pose such a question. It seems the capt's methods of debate are rubbing off on others here. However, if those same office workers join a terrorist group like Tablighi Jamaat and start saying stuff like, "I will institute legal steps against XYZ in terms of Islamic law" any time they don't get their way, then you could well define them as "radical muslims." Does that help your understanding on this?
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

Top
#50587 - 01 May 07 13:08 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: chewwyUK]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: chewwyUK
Hmm ... All murder aside it sounds like our man Bob should have buggered off from the Job if he didn't like his players praying. I mean correct me if I am wrong but Pakistan is a Muslim country and he should respect their culture and beliefs.

Another thing I have noticed about overseas reporting is that they seem to love referring to anybody who follows their religion as being a "radical Muslim" The people in my office don't drink, believe in Islam and are forever praying. Does that mean they are radical?


I said that too , but laughing gravy chose to delete it because I was dirtying up his corner .
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

Top
#50588 - 01 May 07 13:14 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: riccardo]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: riccardo
Quoting: chewwyUK
The people in my office don't drink, believe in Islam and are forever praying. Does that mean they are radical?


No it doesn't. But it does make you look awfully patronizing to even pose such a question. It seems the capt's methods of debate are rubbing off on others here. However, if those same office workers join a terrorist group like Tablighi Jamaat and start saying stuff like, "I will institute legal steps against XYZ in terms of Islamic law" any time they don't get their way, then you could well define them as "radical muslims." Does that help your understanding on this?


Don't be so pompous Riccardo - Rubbing off on others ? don't talk rubbish - everyone has a free mind and can draw their own conclusions - you just don't like it because everytime you spout off about American massacres or Muslim extremism , you get jumped on .


Woolmer knew what he was getting into , and if he was that greedy that he couldn't see the writing on the wall , the tough titty - same thing goes for you too , if you don't like Indonesia , there is no point trying to change it , because all the expats together can't do that , get yourself to the airport , and on to Changi , but do beware of complaining too much in Singers mind .

If you don't want comments , don't post in the first place - but don't selectively delete what you don't like , it makes you like Soeharto .
You need to remember that I am quite happy "debating" any subject with you in person , but I suspect that you may not be quite so comfortable when it starts warming up a bit .

When you choose to be reasonable in your ascertions and replies , then you may find people may reply in the same manner -


Edited by Capt. Mainwaring (01 May 07 13:18)
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

Top
#50589 - 01 May 07 13:58 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
hmmm ---- interesting response Ric. I was commenting on the trend of foreign media referring to people as being "radical Muslims" on an all to frequent basis.

How radical were these cricketers and their beliefs? Just because they stop their job to go and prey doesn't mean they are radical.

Personally I think the idea of worshiping any God is a radical idea but people cant just brand people with the "radical tag" whenever they feel like it.

Note please Ric this was not a comment on you or your take on this matter but a comment on a worrying media trend.
_________________________
Edited by Piss Salon
Edit Reason: taste

Top
#50592 - 01 May 07 14:15 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
I deleted my own crud as well, not just yours, as the thread took a stupid turn.

You're sounding like a broken record with the whole "if you don't like it, leave.." thing. You actually say that on EVERY thread -- did you know that?

As usual, I guess i need to remind you AGAIN, that this thread is not about me or lovely prayerful office workers, it's about this cricket controversy and the new revelations/allegations.

Why don't you, capt, just start another thread somewhere in the top half of this site and just get all the hateful feelings and half-assed assumptions you have toward me off your chest and out of your system. Then maybe you won't need to spoil every thread here with your nauseating personal attacks on me. Fine, tell me I'm wrong because of x, y and z facts or beliefs, but please do whatever you need to do in order to carry on a mature, civil discussion.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

Top
#50601 - 01 May 07 14:25 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: chewwyUK]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: chewwyUK
How radical were these cricketers and their beliefs? Just because they stop their job to go and prey doesn't mean they are radical.


Quote from original article: "Several senior members of the squad had become members of the strict Muslim movement Tablighi Jamaat."

And a definition of what TJ is all about:
"Tablighi Jamaat has always adopted an extreme interpretation of Sunni Islam, but in the past two decades, it has radicalized to the point where it is now a driving force of Islamic extremism and a major recruiting agency for terrorist causes worldwide. For a majority of young Muslim extremists, joining Tablighi Jamaat is the first step on the road to extremism."

So, if we look at the fact that these players joined an extremist terror group and suddenly became very defiant with the coach, a strong case could be made that it's a fair description by the "foreign media" (foreign to whom?) to use the phrase "radical Muslim".

Would any of us really rather have the media tell us less than they already do?
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

Top
#50607 - 01 May 07 14:49 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: riccardo]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
The programme suggested that some of the players were involved with a radical Muslim movement, called Tablighi Jamaat. You see how they have avoided using fact and left the term radical Muslim at the bottom of the article?

Tablighi Jamaat ("Proselytizing Group") (Arabic: جماعة تبليغ, also Tabliq) is a Muslim missionary and revival movement. They usually limit their activities to within the Muslim community itself, their main aim being to bring spiritual awakening to the world's Muslims

Most of the articles I have seen said it has increasingly "been linked to terrorism" With all religion there is good and bad ... I don't think that I am ready to believe that every member of Tablighi Jamaat is a terrorist, the same way i dont believe every catholic priest is a kiddy fiddler
_________________________
Edited by Piss Salon
Edit Reason: taste

Top
#50611 - 01 May 07 15:23 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: riccardo]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: riccardo
I deleted my own crud as well, not just yours, as the thread took a stupid turn.

You're sounding like a broken record with the whole "if you don't like it, leave.." thing. You actually say that on EVERY thread -- did you know that?

As usual, I guess i need to remind you AGAIN, that this thread is not about me or lovely prayerful office workers, it's about this cricket controversy and the new revelations/allegations.

Why don't you, capt, just start another thread somewhere in the top half of this site and just get all the hateful feelings and half-assed assumptions you have toward me off your chest and out of your system. Then maybe you won't need to spoil every thread here with your nauseating personal attacks on me. Fine, tell me I'm wrong because of x, y and z facts or beliefs, but please do whatever you need to do in order to carry on a mature, civil discussion.



couldn't give a frog's fat arse about Woolmer - and to be frank , neither could I .


Edited by riccardo (01 May 07 16:00)
Edit Reason: same old crud

Top
#50614 - 01 May 07 15:46 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
I would like to clarify my original statement as I dont want to get dragged in to a capt v riccardo dispute. I said putting the murder aspect aside if Woolmer had such a big problem with people praying then Pakistan wasn't the right country for him to coach.

I don't know Woolmer from a bar of soap but if you have to understand how important peoples beliefs are be they Muslim, catholic, Christian, Hindu etc

It is pointless to speculate on who/how this guy died until some facts start to come out.
_________________________
Edited by Piss Salon
Edit Reason: taste

Top
#50682 - 02 May 07 14:57 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: chewwyUK]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: chewwyUK
I don't know Woolmer from a bar of soap but if you have to understand how important peoples beliefs are be they Muslim, catholic, Christian, Hindu etc

It is pointless to speculate on who/how this guy died until some facts start to come out.


"Understanding" people's beliefs and trying to efficiently manage a professional sports team are two different things. For goodness sakes, if half the Wolves team were to become hardcore fundamentalist born-again Christians and began neglecting their duties (their job, for which they are paid handsomely) on the field, it would be mandatory that Mick McCarthy make them stop. I somehow doubt you'd say, "Oh Mick is wrong for not understanding their beliefs.." We're not just talking about praying on their own time, but missing practices, leaving in the middle of matches to pray and broadcasting religious sermons on the team bus. Even the Pakistan Cricket Board called for a stop to it. But actually Woolmer DID NOT comment to any of them or indeed publicly about it. He was trying very hard to be "understanding."

And that last comment about speculating sounds precisely like the POLRI chief's statement to the media on the Munir murder...

Here's a recent story with a bit of info:
http://www.hindu.com/2007/05/02/stories/2007050205441200.htm

London: A "fatwah" angle emerged in the mysterious murder of Bob Woolmer with the disclosure that the Pakistan coach was unhappy with the time spent by players on prayers.

Woolmer was upset that several members of the Pakistani team were followers of `Tabliqhy Jamaat,' a Muslim revivalist movement, Pakistan's media manager Pervez Mir indicated on Monday night on BBC's `Panorama' programme, which focussed on the coach's murder in a Jamaican hotel six weeks ago.

According to Mr. Mir, Woolmer felt players were focussing more on religion than their game. He went on to claim that Woolmer could have even invited a "fatwah" had he gone public with his feelings.

Recalling an incident, Mr. Mir said: "A CD was being played which was a Tabliqhy CD and Bob, who was sitting behind me, said `why don't you tell them to stop? If they want to listen to that they could on their iPods or personal devices,' and he thought that he shouldn't be subjected to all that and I agreed with Bob."

"He was not particularly pleased when players were going out to say their prayers in the middle of the game... ," he said.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

Top
#50683 - 02 May 07 15:34 Re: That Ain't Cricket [Re: riccardo]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
I am currently downloading this program Ric and will not comment further until i have watched the show ....

probably watch it on the weekend
_________________________
Edited by Piss Salon
Edit Reason: taste

Top


Moderator:  NetCop