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#48834 - 01 Apr 07 21:10 Garuda Crash 3
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Investigators and technicians in the USA have been able to get all the info from the black boxes (including voice recordings from the cockpit) and now it seems quite clear there was pilot error. Essentially the senior pilot was coming in too fast and did not have the wing flaps down, and the young Co-pilot begged him to abort the landing and go around so they could come in slower. The senior pilot, Muhammad Marwoto Komar, won the argument, but crashed the plane..... Looks like it was that backward Indonesian/Jawa/Islam culture of Feudalism and Loss of Face that killed and injured all those people.


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Speed, pilot error caused Garuda crash: investigator
Sunday Apr 1 09:00 AEST
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=257936

Pilot error caused the Garuda flight 200 crash in Yogyakarta that killed 21 people, including five Australians, the chief crash investigator has told the Nine Network's SUNDAY.

Black box recordings revealed flight captain Marwoto Komar brought the plane in so fast the landing flaps could only be partially deployed, Mr Tatang Kurniadi, Chairman of National Transportation Safety Committee, said.

"There's some argumentation between the co-pilot and the pilot, and the captain, relating with the speed and flaps," Mr Kurniadi said.

"The co-pilot didn't open them because he knows that the speed is maximum."

The recordings, which were recovered from the black box by US investigators and sent to Indonesia last week, also revealed the first officer urgently called on the captain to "go around" and not to land the plane.

It is not known why the captain ignored this advice.

Mr Kurniadi said the captain and first officer of the Boeing 737-400 were flying together for the first time and that poor decision making by the pilot, in particular, led to the crash.

"I worry that this accident came from absent-mindedness from the cockpit crew," Mr Kurniadi said.

"The co-pilot is a young pilot, just 2000 flying hours, and the captain is experienced more than 15,000 flying hours.

"This is a new pair for them to fly together. I'm trying to find out what is behind this co-operation, if it's a good co-operation or not."

Captain Komar made a brief apology after the crash, and has since "been kept out of the public eye", SUNDAY reported.

Mr Kurniadi's team will finalise its findings within a month.


Other similar articles with retractions about "arguments"...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/dispute-on-crash-facts/2007/04/01/1175366080773.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1886765.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1886734.htm
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#48837 - 02 Apr 07 07:13 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: riccardo]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
according to detik.com, the pilots weren't arguing; they were communicating. "loud and clear" communication, in fact.


Garuda: Pilot & Co-pilot Garuda 200 Bukan Cekcok, Tapi Komunikasi
Pihak Garuda dengan tegas membantah bahwa tidak pernah ada cekcok antara kru kokpit. Yang ada hanya komunikasi loud and clear.


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#48838 - 02 Apr 07 07:16 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: KuKuKaChu]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
"I worry that this accident came from absent-mindedness from the cockpit crew," Mr Kurniadi said.

well, that's a relief! just a little absent-mindedness. that makes me feel better.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#48848 - 02 Apr 07 08:07 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Indonesia, the land where "lupa" is a legitimate reason for not doing something!
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#49397 - 12 Apr 07 16:19 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: Dilli]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
And the latest on this is that the prelim report verifies that the plane was coming way too fast and the co-pilot recommended 4 times that the pilot abort the landing and do a "go-around". The pilot pressed on and in today's news it now seems we know the reason why -- GREED $$$

Garuda has an incentive/bonus scheme for pilots who save fuel -- meaning they are given bonus $$$RP for plowing straight through a storm instead of going 200 miles around it, AND the get more $$$ when they press on with a landing while conditions are not safe instead of spending an extra 10 minutes in the air to circle around and get everything properly prepared for a safe landing.

Here's the link to the story:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1894980.htm

So now we know why GA200 crashed ... but the question is how can the gov't or the airlines make flying safer? Will they act on any of the info coming out or will it be business as usual?
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#49399 - 12 Apr 07 16:22 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: riccardo]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
And this just in today: Garuda had to make an emergency landing due to landing gear problems.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/50921.html
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#49418 - 13 Apr 07 08:53 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: riccardo]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
this gets better and better! indon authorities really goofed up giving the flight recorders to the australians!
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#49454 - 13 Apr 07 15:50 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Gren Offline
Member

Registered: 24 Oct 06
Posts: 21
Loc: Jakarta
Ricc, it's Friday the 13th, & I have to catch a Garuda flight to Jakarta at 6pm. What would you advise me to do?

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#49455 - 13 Apr 07 16:44 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: Gren]
Gren Offline
Member

Registered: 24 Oct 06
Posts: 21
Loc: Jakarta
My flight has been delayed. Thank God it was only because of 'operational reasons', which is a relief.

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#49456 - 13 Apr 07 19:44 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: Gren]
The Great Gonzo Offline
Member+

Registered: 13 Dec 06
Posts: 134
Loc: Big Durian
Has there been any indication of what punishment might be handed to this Garuda pilot?
He will likely just get a slap on the wrist, and being Indonesia he will probably still be a pilot for Garuda as well.
He should get 19 counts of negligence causing death, x counts of negligence causing serious injury and be stripped of his pilot's license - at a minimum.
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#49496 - 14 Apr 07 12:41 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: The Great Gonzo]
Gurumeister Offline
Member+

Registered: 08 Jan 07
Posts: 72
Loc: Indonesia
Ricardo - "backward Indonesian/Jawa/Islam culture of Feudalism and Loss of Face" if you hate Indonesia so much - why get involved?

The great gonzo - I think the pilot is dead right? the front looked pretty smashed up.

Any body got the low down on those new yamaha vi-xions?

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#49498 - 14 Apr 07 13:03 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: Gurumeister]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: Gurumeister
Any body got the low down on those new yamaha vi-xions?

at last someone has their priorities straight ...
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#49501 - 14 Apr 07 13:15 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: Gurumeister]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: The Great Gonzo
Has there been any indication of what punishment might be handed to this Garuda pilot?


He's currently suspended and they're evaluating him and questioning him. Another new development possibly related is that around 80 senior Garuda pilots are considering a walk-out or straight up resignation due to the "working environment...", which they did not clarify. Just last week, after they announced the GA200 pilot's suspension, there were like a dozen minor mishaps with Garuda planes. There was no word on whether it was caused by pilots taking revenge for one of their comrades or if there was a silent "sick-out" leaving younger pilots in control.


Quoting: Gurumeister
Ricardo - "backward Indonesian/Jawa/Islam culture of Feudalism and Loss of Face" if you hate Indonesia so much - why get involved?


Hello and nice to meet you Guru. I'm not sure of your background, or whether you are able to fully comprehend the English language, but I don't mention "hating" Indonesia at all. I do express a high degree of disgust and contempt for backwardness and a feudalistic culture that has no place in the modern world -- especially in friggin' cockpits. It's more like "tough love" rather than hatred.

If everybody were to go along with your patronizing attitude, then modernization and development would never happen. I may use harsh words to describe my disgust, but when 21 people get needlessly incinerated due to that, it is no longer something we should beat around the bush with.
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#49532 - 16 Apr 07 08:54 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: riccardo]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: riccardo
Quoting: The Great Gonzo
Has there been any indication of what punishment might be handed to this Garuda pilot?


He's currently suspended and they're evaluating him and questioning him. Another new development possibly related is that around 80 senior Garuda pilots are considering a walk-out or straight up resignation due to the "working environment...", which they did not clarify. Just last week, after they announced the GA200 pilot's suspension, there were like a dozen minor mishaps with Garuda planes. There was no word on whether it was caused by pilots taking revenge for one of their comrades or if there was a silent "sick-out" leaving younger pilots in control.


Quoting: Gurumeister
Ricardo - "backward Indonesian/Jawa/Islam culture of Feudalism and Loss of Face" if you hate Indonesia so much - why get involved?


Hello and nice to meet you Guru. I'm not sure of your background, or whether you are able to fully comprehend the English language, but I don't mention "hating" Indonesia at all. I do express a high degree of disgust and contempt for backwardness and a feudalistic culture that has no place in the modern world -- especially in friggin' cockpits. It's more like "tough love" rather than hatred.

If everybody were to go along with your patronizing attitude, then modernization and development would never happen. I may use harsh words to describe my disgust, but when 21 people get needlessly incinerated due to that, it is no longer something we should beat around the bush with.


Yes , but that aside Riccardo , you DO hate the Javanese - whether that is anything to do with this particular ranting remains to be judged by the individual reader (assuming of course that there are any) .

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I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
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#49586 - 16 Apr 07 23:24 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
We're obviously getting WAY off-topic here, but I think my good cap'n, you too suffer from that commoner's malady that the propagandists love so much (because they can take advantage of you and your ilk) -- lack of attention span beyond simplistic soundbites. I hate certain backward characteristics that many of them still live by.

Just like one's child, you may cringe at the sound of their screams and wailing for seemingly nonsensical things, but you deal with it and try to teach them why that is unacceptable -- you don't hate them. Eventually, they mature, blend in with the wider society in the world and realize there are more sophisticated ways to communicate a need. A large portion of the adult Javanese, for one reason or another, are like immature little children that do not yet know sophisticated ways to communicate a need. Their idea of sophistication is to steal something by lying to someone, and if they get caught, call their fellow kampungan to run amok.

And their idea of flying a plane is to never be humble enough to say, "You're right Mr. co-pilot, I'm sorry, let's do your idea and do a go-around..."


_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#49612 - 17 Apr 07 11:31 Re: Garuda Crash 3 [Re: riccardo]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: riccardo
We're obviously getting WAY off-topic here, but I think my good cap'n, you too suffer from that commoner's malady that the propagandists love so much (because they can take advantage of you and your ilk) -- lack of attention span beyond simplistic soundbites. I hate certain backward characteristics that many of them still live by.

Just like one's child, you may cringe at the sound of their screams and wailing for seemingly nonsensical things, but you deal with it and try to teach them why that is unacceptable -- you don't hate them. Eventually, they mature, blend in with the wider society in the world and realize there are more sophisticated ways to communicate a need. A large portion of the adult Javanese, for one reason or another, are like immature little children that do not yet know sophisticated ways to communicate a need. Their idea of sophistication is to steal something by lying to someone, and if they get caught, call their fellow kampungan to run amok.

And their idea of flying a plane is to never be humble enough to say, "You're right Mr. co-pilot, I'm sorry, let's do your idea and do a go-around..."




Beg pardon Riccardo , I do ignore "the propagandists " as much as I ignore you at times -

Whilst you may be correct in your ascertion that the Javanese are unable to express themselves and their desires with any degree of clarity , they are no different to most of Asia -
I note that there has been a further bloodshed inuring masacre at Virginia Tech - is this the modern west's way of "expressing itself"

Many aircraft have crashed through sheer pigheadedness of the pilot and crew , refusing to believe instruments without checking , and an unreasonable belief in their own infallibility .



"commoner's malady " - cheeky cunt .
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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