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#48494 - 28 Mar 07 09:46 It's Just MONEY$$$
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
I read this a couple weeks ago, but thought I would post it here as well. My question is to JakChatters.. Do you think this guy is right, when he says that Indonesians only care about money, and none of the finer things in life..

------------------------------------------------

Concerned only with money

Jakarta Post
Opinion and Editorial - March 10, 2007

Since 1991, I have visited many places in Indonesia, from Medan to Makassar. As I learned Bahasa Indonesia I can easily mingle with ordinary Indonesians.

My first opinion about Indonesia was very positive. Most people greeted me and invited me to their homes. In particular, people in the countryside are very happy when a westerner visits their village.

After staying a long time in this country and having talked with many people at all social levels, from farmers to government officials, it seems that most have only one topic which keeps them entertained: money.

In my country, the Netherlands, people have many hobbies and ambitions. Dutch children as young as four years old want to become doctors, police officers, dentists, lawyers, musicians, dancers, etc. They are encouraged by their parents to swim, dance, sing, draw cartoons, love animals, respect nature and so on.

Indonesian children simply hang around all day in the vicinity of their house without having anything to do. They aren't encouraged by their parents to do something useful as these parents only watch television, chat with neighbors or, even worse, sleep.

As a European I become bored of being told every day that I am rich just because I'm from Europe. Indonesians don't care about their achievements, but only about the amount of money they acquire. The way they get this money doesn't matter to them.

People at all levels protest daily about corruption, but most of them are themselves corrupt. If those protesters could acquire top positions they wouldn't mind being corrupt in the same way they now accuse others.

A lot of the media, especially The Jakarta Post, run stories on widespread corruption. Unfortunately, it's only talk with almost no action at all.

In my opinion, the high level of corruption in Indonesia is caused by the fact that Indonesians have no ambition, except to acquire money. When they have more than they need, they simply have a party, buy a car, television, or waste it on other meaningless items.

They don't save it for their children's education and future like we do in Europe. What's the meaning of money if you don't know what to do with it?

How is this country going to develop if nobody cares about their achievements but only about money?

RONALD RAMAKERS
Medan, North Sumatra
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#48498 - 28 Mar 07 09:50 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: riccardo]
Orang Kanada Offline
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Registered: 30 Sep 06
Posts: 621
Loc: Jakarta
It's funny... I'm in Indonesia for one year now. My biggest arguments or fights with Indonesian folks were about money. Always. It happen a lot when you're in music, but here, it's just plain worst.
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#48501 - 28 Mar 07 10:04 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Orang Kanada]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Personally, I think he's been hanging around the wrong type of Indonesians... Either that or his Indonesian GF just dumped him and he's spewing his anger.

I've been here 10 years and probably more than half the people I know or have met, are obsessively interested in their kids' education (most start saving for university when the kids are infants), then they get piano lessons, violin lessons and language lessons starting from the age of 4 or 5.

There definitely is a much stronger element of materialism in all Asian societies, and if someone from Europe or N. America looks at it through their own cultural filters, they think it's wrong or bad.
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#48502 - 28 Mar 07 10:25 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: riccardo]
naga Offline
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Registered: 18 Jan 07
Posts: 260
Loc: undisclosed location
"There definitely is a much stronger element of materialism in all Asian societies, and if someone from Europe or N. America looks at it through their own cultural filters, they think it's wrong or bad."

Agreed, but also, status and class are taken far more seriously in Asia than in the West...the perception of wealth is just as good as reality in Asia and more so in the developing parts; the rich seem to need to rub it into the have nots in this part of the world....from everything such as their posessions to the way they treat people..
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#48504 - 28 Mar 07 10:35 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: riccardo]
Choc_Cow Offline
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Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
I agree with Ricc..

All the way while i was reading this post i was thinking, how old is this guy? probably 15 - 16?

"In my country, the Netherlands, people have many hobbies and ambitions. Dutch children as young as four years old want to become doctors, police officers, dentists, lawyers, musicians, dancers, etc. They are encouraged by their parents to swim, dance, sing, draw cartoons, love animals, respect nature and so on."


Swim? LOL! alot of children cannot even afford school uniforms let alone a swimsuit.
Respect nature? Easy for you to do it, but it's hard to do so when nature crosses path with your basic needs.. (hmmm worship that tree? or cut it & feed my 5 hungry kids..)


And why are these ppl seem to be obsessed with money? well maybe it's because of the poverty surrounding them. Just like food, if you never get enough, you'll think about it all the time.


"They don't save it for their children's education and future like we do in Europe. What's the meaning of money if you don't know what to do with it?"


Delusion??

When Indonesia has the same GDP/ income per capita as Netherland/europe, you can start comparing, but not until then..

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#48514 - 28 Mar 07 11:33 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Choc_Cow]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
Good points made by all on what I have to say is a very interesting topic ...

From a western point of view it would seem that Indonesians are obsessed by money. But lets think about why money is such an important issue for the majority of Indonesians. If you are living in Holland you are pretty much assured that your family will have access to decent education and medical facilities. You will drive down nice roads and are confident that the public transport is clean and safe (not to mention running on time). This gives people in Holland a good standard of living. This luxury allows people to concentrate in other areas such as you mentioned.

But think of being born in Indonesia where nothing is guaranteed and life is difficult. There is no safety net in Indonesia from the government. If you are out of work you wont pick up a monthly payment from the tax payers, you wont get assistance in paying your rent or mortgage and the medical treatment you have access to is well below what we need. In short Indonesians concentrate on money because without it you are well and truly screwed. Even if you come from a well off middle class family you still want money in order to buy security for the future (children etc).

It can be frustrating sometimes for a westerner but you must understand the reasons why this fixation on money exists. Once you do you find it totally understandable.

This opinion is based on a generalization and there are always great exceptions to the rule. There are more and more Indonesian taking active roles in improving the environment and other peoples lives. There are also many musicians and artists which I am sure are not in it for the money.
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Edited by Piss Salon
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#48519 - 28 Mar 07 12:20 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: chewwyUK]
Lulu Offline
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Registered: 19 Feb 06
Posts: 2226
Loc: Indonesia
Quoting: chewwyUK
Once you do you find it totally understandable.



Well supposedly not very difficult to understand if people just want to think deeper....but then it's difficult for me to understand why this guy has gut to write the article at the first place...wink
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#48523 - 28 Mar 07 12:35 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Lulu]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
Im guessing just having a bad day ... I have those and sometimes vent before taking the time to think. In the west the one answer you never give to the interview question "what are you looking for in your next job?" is more money ...the standard response is "a greater challenge". In Indonesia the standard response is "I want more money". Who is being more honest???
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#48572 - 28 Mar 07 16:38 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: riccardo]
dolphin Offline
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Registered: 07 Jan 07
Posts: 337
Loc: auckland, nz
Not totaly wrong! bomb
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#48578 - 28 Mar 07 17:06 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: chewwyUK]
Orang Kanada Offline
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Registered: 30 Sep 06
Posts: 621
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: chewwyUK
There are also many musicians and artists which I am sure are not in it for the money.


That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't need money to be happy. You don't need money to be happy. That's an illusion.

The maid here seem to be a zillion time more happy than any middle and high class indonesians I know. Middle and high class people running after money. The very same people who wants to offer "piano lesson" to their kids. As long as your NEEDS are convered, such as food and a roof over your head, it's suppose to be enough. Your kid love music, buy him/her a cheap guitar and let him/her play. That's what my mom did, and I'm from a rich country. And my parents aren't poor either.

So stop the violins, I won't cry for the "poor-Indonesians-it's-not-their-fault-they-grew-up-in-need-of-money". 'Coz there's million of proof all around that's bullshit. Au contraire, money is going against hapiness. You guys should listen to Noam Chomsky.
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#48579 - 28 Mar 07 17:21 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Choc_Cow]
Orang Kanada Offline
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Registered: 30 Sep 06
Posts: 621
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: Chocolatea
I agree with Ricc..

All the way while i was reading this post i was thinking, how old is this guy? probably 15 - 16?


Maybe, but I'm 32.. let's continue

Quoting: Chocolatea


Swim? LOL! alot of children cannot even afford school uniforms let alone a swimsuit.
Respect nature? Easy for you to do it, but it's hard to do so when nature crosses path with your basic needs.. (hmmm worship that tree? or cut it & feed my 5 hungry kids..)


I don't see how littering will feed your kids... and who needs a pool with the ocean right there? Oh yeah, the water looks like liquid shit around Jakarta because of the pollution!

Quoting: Chocolatea

And why are these ppl seem to be obsessed with money? well maybe it's because of the poverty surrounding them. Just like food, if you never get enough, you'll think about it all the time.


Already get there, previous post...

Quoting: Chocolatea

When Indonesia has the same GDP/ income per capita as Netherland/europe, you can start comparing, but not until then..


Why don't you have the same GDP/ income per capita anyway?

My answer would be, who cares? But, once again your mind is money oriented.
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#48580 - 28 Mar 07 17:24 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: naga]
Orang Kanada Offline
Member*

Registered: 30 Sep 06
Posts: 621
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: naga
"There definitely is a much stronger element of materialism in all Asian societies, and if someone from Europe or N. America looks at it through their own cultural filters, they think it's wrong or bad."

Agreed, but also, status and class are taken far more seriously in Asia than in the West...the perception of wealth is just as good as reality in Asia and more so in the developing parts; the rich seem to need to rub it into the have nots in this part of the world....from everything such as their posessions to the way they treat people..


Now, we're getting somewhere
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#48581 - 28 Mar 07 19:28 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Orang Kanada]
terranova Offline
Member+

Registered: 15 Nov 06
Posts: 32
Loc: Jakarta
as my experiences it is depend of the status social. in lower class yes.. it is more rewarding for them if you give money as they can use it for premier needs ( foods etc ). if in middle class it is mixed means they can use money for educations and in higher level they use it for tersier.

i do agree with stage of needs. if you feel secure financially means you gets all your basic needs fullfill then u can think about the highest like education, self esteem, self actualization. but it is not always happen like that always. somehow maslow theory of needs become so generalize (yet it is the major happens). it doesnt happens to people who has values beyond only phsisical needs.

it is happens too in giving bonus or incentive at company but i dont say all higher level dont like money. few of them really run for money too (they use it for not necessary somehow for self esteem and social status) bcz in indonesia we should admit somehow government let the money culture ( u can get everything you want).

but many places u can still see put brotherhood, togetherness in there. not all indonesian like that even the government seems supporting the money culture like that. i do agree that government should work harder to built standard of living so people can go beyond just money but more for theirselves growth as individu like their talents not bcz being doc u can earn more money but being doc makes ur potentials out in best. so people learn to have honest way of being theirselves by seeing their potency. many people cant pass university stages or some posisition bcz they cant pass the test but bcz they have money they can do it. so it is make sense when they graduate (maybe bcz money too) they should earn much at least get break even sum of the money they have paid. it is really not healhty and it is cruel in human growth.

mostly the most valuable things is something that money cant buy.

so .. smile use money and not used by money.

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#48608 - 29 Mar 07 08:29 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: terranova]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
OK has also hit on something I have believed for years .... Money does not guarantee you happiness. When I was 19 a spent 3 months backpacking around Africa. For three months a saw people who had nothing .. However everywhere I went I saw nothing but smiles and was welcomed with open arms by almost everybody I met. This trip was the best experience of my life as a truly learned how important money is (which is very little).

Contrasted to this was my experience in London where through my Job I met some very wealthy business people. I saw these people with the big house, yacht, merc etc ... On the surface it looks like they have it all. Dig a little deeper and you soon find a repeating story of multiple ex-wives, kids they don't see and family who have stopped talking to them. Every one of them was developing a healthy addiction to cocaine and were alcoholic or at least borderline.

So a message for people who concern themselves with the acquisition of wealth ... be careful what you wish for as you may just get it
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#48622 - 29 Mar 07 09:10 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Orang Kanada]
Choc_Cow Offline
Member**

Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
Quoting: Orang Kanada


Maybe, but I'm 32.. let's continue


You can be 32 but it's not a guarantee that you're not acting like a child.. dont you know that?
And when i question "is he 15/16?" of course he probably isnt.. but i refer to his inteligence level (which probably is about the same level of 15/16 y/o)


Quoting: Orang Kanada

I don't see how littering will feed your kids...


Well if you want to pick specific examples of course there are always exclusions. What i refer to is in general, Basic Need & Poverty!.

And by your silly example, I don't see how littering will feed your kids either, unless if you're saying the poors get money by being litterers. Btw have you gone through small kampungs outside of jakarta & see how clean the streets actually are?

Littering has to do with selfishness & ppl's lack of concern (although some just simply have a lack of wide understanding stemmed from lack of education).

However, lets play along with your poverty & littering sample:
A mother with 2 kids, walking on the street, when they saw an icecream peddlar, the kids begged her for some, she bought a couple for them. They handed her the sticky wrappers. She's holding both kids hands. So what is she going to do with these wrappers?. She's from the village, she doesn't have any fancy thing like a bag. She carry all she needs, ie: SIM & money in her bra. Hmmm no garbage bins as far as the eyes can see, no way she's going to stick these sticky things in her milkholders, and no way she's going to let go of her kids hands. *Bear in mind that she doesn't have the level of education or complexity of mind as you do* so what does she do??....

Now i dnt want to defend ppl who litter because it's not an excuse AT ALL. However do you see enough garbage bins deployed by the goverment? of course not.. (i dont want to throw the question WHY? because that's going to drag on)


Quoting: Orang Kanada
and who needs a pool with the ocean right there? Oh yeah, the water looks like liquid shit around Jakarta because of the pollution!


Thats right.. so finally you see we need a pool for a swimming lesson? that ppl probably require some kind of payment for the use of the pool huh? ...

Quoting: Orang Kanada
Why don't you have the same GDP/ income per capita anyway?

My answer would be, who cares? But, once again your mind is money oriented.


Oh and who cares about your answer? I refuse to let you judge me without even having the slightest understanding of what i had say (which is: YOU HAVE TO COMPARE APPLES WITH APPLES).

Do us a favour, between this post and the next.. please try to grow up.

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#48631 - 29 Mar 07 09:38 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Choc_Cow]
naga Offline
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Registered: 18 Jan 07
Posts: 260
Loc: undisclosed location
lighten up Chocolatea....

OK has some valid points, albeit cynical, as does the original 'letter writer', who frankly, i agree with...

many foreigners are fed up with being seen as an atm for various parasitic elements of society here, many of whom don't understand how hard they work to earn those privileges..

...they are entitled to be cynical and they are sick of being blamed for every ill of society here, whilst your untoucable elite continue to loot the country, both financially and morally..

it is you who needs to grow up, take a deep breath and think first..
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#48635 - 29 Mar 07 10:03 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: naga]
Choc_Cow Offline
Member**

Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
Quoting: naga
lighten up Chocolatea....

OK has some valid points, albeit cynical, as does the original 'letter writer', who frankly, i agree with...


yea i dont disagree with you.. everyone has a valid point (or so they thought, hence a discussion/debate). YOu may agree or disagree with anyone..!


Quoting: naga
many foreigners are fed up with being seen as an atm for various parasitic elements of society here, many of whom don't understand how hard they work to earn those privileges..

...they are entitled to be cynical and they are sick of being blamed for every ill of society here, whilst your untoucable elite continue to loot the country, both financially and morally..


And chuck a dummy? that's fine.. but when ricc posted that article it's open for a discussion, so i posted my point of view as well (you through your foreign eyes & i through mine). WHat's not ON is for OK to judge & calle me a Money Oriented person.. when he doesnt know what i'm or what i'm talking about.

Quoting: naga
it is you who needs to grow up, take a deep breath and think first..


Well let's see.. so it's fine if someone say you're a busybody ?

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#48638 - 29 Mar 07 10:52 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Choc_Cow]
Orang Kanada Offline
Member*

Registered: 30 Sep 06
Posts: 621
Loc: Jakarta
Getting sour Chocolatea? And apparently more confused. I don't even see why I should take the time to reply. If my exemples are silly, you should read yours honey! I never called you a money oriented person, you jumped to that conclusion yourself. I never attacked you personnally in this thread, so I don't see why you get offended, unless you see yourself in what I'm saying and didn't like it... not a reason to challenge my mental age! LOL!
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#48639 - 29 Mar 07 10:54 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Orang Kanada]
Orang Kanada Offline
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Registered: 30 Sep 06
Posts: 621
Loc: Jakarta
Which all proves what I was saying at first... alsways fighting about money with Indonesians. Even here. Unbelievable.
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#48643 - 29 Mar 07 11:07 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Orang Kanada]
naga Offline
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Registered: 18 Jan 07
Posts: 260
Loc: undisclosed location
"WHat's not ON is for OK to judge & calle me a Money Oriented person.. when he doesnt know what i'm or what i'm talking about."

dude, i'm not convinced YOU know what you are talking about, that's the issue here...

""Well let's see.. so it's fine if someone say you're a busybody ?"

seriously, what are you on about?

i don't think your command of english is able to express what you are trying to say, i may be wrong....
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#48693 - 29 Mar 07 15:45 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: chewwyUK]
Yes Offline
Member++

Registered: 17 Oct 06
Posts: 177
Loc: Bali, Indonesia
Quoting: chewwyUK
In the west the one answer you never give to the interview question "what are you looking for in your next job?" is more money ...the standard response is "a greater challenge". In Indonesia the standard response is "I want more money". Who is being more honest???



how very true chewwy!! i have used such responses in job interviews, the funny thing is, they know what your thinking because they would be thinking the same thing if they were on the other side of the table.

money is a strange thing, there arnt many aspects of your life that isnt related to money in one way or another. its rare that you will get somthing for nothing. Sure there are those people who are genually generous, but in more cases than not you are always trading somthing...

As for indonesians being obsessed with money, its human nature and can present itself in more than one way. currency will always captivate the minds of hummanity as a whole
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#48700 - 29 Mar 07 19:25 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Orang Kanada]
Choc_Cow Offline
Member**

Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
Quoting: Orang Kanada
I never called you a money oriented person, you jumped to that conclusion yourself.


oh and what is this?

Quoting: Orang Kanada
"My answer would be, who cares? But, once again your mind is money oriented"


scroll up before you yap next time?

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#48703 - 29 Mar 07 19:55 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: naga]
Choc_Cow Offline
Member**

Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
Quoting: naga


dude, i'm not convinced YOU know what you are talking about, that's the issue here...


And i'm not convinced you've read my original posting either.


Quoting: naga
"Well let's see.. so it's fine if someone say you're a busybody ?"
seriously, what are you on about?


exactly.. how would you like it if someone made an abrupt conclusion & call you a busybody (just basing it on your post which's 'probably' filled with good intention to chill me out).. misunderstood? i could imagine..




Quoting: naga
i don't think your command of english is able to express what you are trying to say, i may be wrong....


Ahh .. the sweet secret weapon of " maybe it's your english". Because the fluency of your english (aka mother tongue) is probably the 1 thing that makes you feel superior in debates like this.

I know i had an ego spurt this morning (ie: No one should fucking tell me what i am). OK's debate's fair but his last comment wasn't, that's why i went beserk, but my pms's over. I know it's not a big deal i should just brush it off & get on. Ricc..sorry for making a mess of the thread.

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#48705 - 29 Mar 07 20:12 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Orang Kanada]
Choc_Cow Offline
Member**

Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
Quoting: Orang Kanada
If my exemples are silly, you should read yours honey!


DO NOT call me honey !! :puking:

*once again sorry for the thread screw up*




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#48716 - 29 Mar 07 23:57 Re: It's Just MONEY$$$ [Re: Choc_Cow]
Orang Kanada Offline
Member*

Registered: 30 Sep 06
Posts: 621
Loc: Jakarta
OK then... how should I call you?

BTW, "your mind is money oriented" refer directly to your answer: "When Indonesia has the same GDP/ income per capita as Netherland/europe, you can start comparing, but not until then.. " If that's not money oriented, what is it?

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