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#41974 - 26 Jan 07 00:57 Lee Kwan Yew & RI
Macan Tutul Offline
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Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Quoting: Piss Salon


Is there anything wrong the world sitting down together around a table (somewhere other than the UN for god's sake) and discussing this like adults, allowing developing nations to air grievances, including the what should be the world's number one concern, the growing gap between rich and poor.


Riccardo: Since the half-joking THREAD on loving all things Bush transformed itself into a healthy discussion on changing/improving basket-case societies such as Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and Indonesia and something about Sydney's Airport, I've decided to give that discussion a home of its own, here so I've moved all those posts from Bush to this one.


Edited by riccardo (29 Jan 07 04:00)

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#41977 - 26 Jan 07 01:17 Re: Reasons WE love BUSH [Re: Macan Tutul]
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Its not a gap between Rich and Poor. It’s a gap between mindless idiots on both sides.

And lets not forget that being rich doesn’t just happen (unless you win a lottery). Someone has to work hard to get rich.

Before you can make yourself rich you need a stable country to be rich in. Or some fucker just takes your money off you and you are poor again frown. But having a stable country (like being rich) requires effort. Lots of effort frown

Lets look at Rhodesia. Once the richest countries in Africa. Massive mineral resources. Chromium, gold, platinum and coal. Excellent farming land. Cecil Rhodes said it was the Jewel of Africa.

Then handed control back to the natives in 1979 and it became Zinbabwe. By 1987 the carefully written constitution was amended so that one tribe had total control. By 1990 – the upper house of parliament (established to keep the lower house in check) was abolished.

• Life expectance under white rule was 60 years. Under black rule its 39.3 years.

• People are now arrested, tortured and killed for supporting opposition parties

• 4 in every 5 Zimbabweans have lost their jobs since 1999

• Zimbabwe's economy has shrunk more than 50%, the country is spiralling down to an economic and social disaster

• Unemployment is estimated at over 80%

• Inflation is running over 1500%,

• hunger is widespread,

• 85% of Zimbabwe's 12.5 million people are now living well below the poverty line

If you want to end poverty in Africa shoot the black leaders and replace them with whites. (oooops – that is so politically incorrect……..)

Read more at: http://www.zic.com.au/news.htm
Quoting: Macan Tutul
Quoting: Piss Salon


Is there anything wrong the world sitting down together around a table (somewhere other than the UN for god's sake) and discussing this like adults, allowing developing nations to air grievances, including the what should be the world's number one concern, the growing gap between rich and poor.

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#41978 - 26 Jan 07 01:28 Re: Reasons WE love BUSH [Re: Polar Bear]
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
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And I daresay - as sad as it is, if you murdered all of the moronic corrupt leaders in Indonesia and handed control to a private company Macquarie Bank etc standards of living and overseas confidence would rise dramatically.

But of course all the left wing do gooders would say its everyone’s right to slip into chaos and starvation under their own democratic control…….

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#41981 - 26 Jan 07 01:50 Re: Reasons WE love BUSH [Re: Polar Bear]
naga Offline
Member++

Registered: 18 Jan 07
Posts: 260
Loc: undisclosed location
..Ahhhh Rhodesia...one of my passions....

Macquarie wouldn't do a better job than anybody else, they have rooted Sydney Airport like you wouldn't believe...it's only a matter of time before a serious security incident occurs.

They have made it more 'efficient' by allowing a higher volume of airline traffic (read: generated higher revenue), which also means no customs officers with dog checks at the baggage carousel and no customs opening up and looking in your baggage. This is on top of all the Arab security guards who don't speak english...add the drug dealing baggage handlers and....faaaaark

Last time i went thru Mascot, a massive Chinese tour package was taken tru customs before me, just like at Sukarno-Hatta, there was no difference...

If Indo really wants to get back on track, they need a Lee Kuan Yew to run the country, make religion irrelevant, create a work ethic and create public institutions that allow the average citizen to succeed, all managed by a 'clean' public service.

So long as the general public are kept ignorant and under religious indoctrination, then i'm afraid Indo 'aint going nowhere, the country will just remain as untapped potential with heaps of people sitting around doing fuck all, complaining why god is so cruel to them all..
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#41990 - 26 Jan 07 02:35 Re: Reasons WE love BUSH [Re: naga]
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I would agree re Lee Kwan......

Sydney airport - well when it was government run it was full of idle bastards who did fuck all. At least they have gone. I agree re security tho....

biggest fear is a SAM hitting a 747 over the city. That one is messy and wargaming it shows no answer....

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#42004 - 26 Jan 07 05:04 Re: Reasons WE love BUSH [Re: Polar Bear]
riccardo Offline
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Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: Polar Bear
I would agree re Lee Kwan......


MOI AUSSI, GUE JUGA, WATASHI MO, YO TAMBIEN, ME TOO!!
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#42008 - 26 Jan 07 07:08 Re: Reasons WE love BUSH [Re: riccardo]
Macan Tutul Offline
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Registered: 02 Dec 05
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Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
LOL Riccardo.... KEREN smile
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#42009 - 26 Jan 07 07:08 Re: Reasons WE love BUSH [Re: riccardo]
Macan Tutul Offline
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Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
LOL Riccardo.... KEREN smile
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#42033 - 26 Jan 07 09:39 Re: Reasons WE love BUSH [Re: Polar Bear]
Piss Salon Offline
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Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 4039
Loc: Jakpus
Quoting: Polar Bear
I would agree re Lee Kwan......


Absofuckinglutely. Beginning with a massive purge of the corrupt. Truth and Reconciliation-style commission. If found guilty of lying to commission or failing to pay back loot considered aquired illegally, death penalty.

Death penalty for corruption. Zero tolerance.

Deregulation of key industries, including rail etc.

Renegotiate foreign debt lent knowingly to past corrupt regimes with the full knowlege that past regimes would steal or misuse money.

Renegotiation of all state contracts, beginning with oil and gas.

A complete seperation of police and state (police controlled through police commissioner), judiciary and state and most importantly, religion and state.

Logging and land clearance ban until land-use throughout Indonesia is fully mapped and Indo works out how much it can generate from carbon credits from China.

Adopting English to become National language by 2025.
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place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes

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#42038 - 26 Jan 07 09:52 Re: Reasons WE love BUSH [Re: Piss Salon]
Shesca Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Aug 06
Posts: 852
Loc: Jakarta
And our country will turn to the boring Singapore?

3 words

no

fucking

way


Edited by Shesca (26 Jan 07 09:54)
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#42044 - 26 Jan 07 10:14 Re: Reasons WE love BUSH [Re: Piss Salon]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: Piss Salon
Quoting: Polar Bear
I would agree re Lee Kwan......

Absofuckinglutely. Beginning with a massive purge of the corrupt. Truth and Reconciliation-style commission. If found guilty of lying to commission or failing to pay back loot considered aquired illegally, death penalty.

Death penalty for corruption. Zero tolerance.

Deregulation of key industries, including rail etc.

Renegotiate foreign debt lent knowingly to past corrupt regimes with the full knowlege that past regimes would steal or misuse money.

Renegotiation of all state contracts, beginning with oil and gas.

A complete seperation of police and state (police controlled through police commissioner), judiciary and state and most importantly, religion and state.

Logging and land clearance ban until land-use throughout Indonesia is fully mapped and Indo works out how much it can generate from carbon credits from China.

Adopting English to become National language by 2025.

free beer?
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#42072 - 26 Jan 07 14:00 Re: Reasons WE love BUSH [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Piss Salon Offline
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Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 4039
Loc: Jakpus
Don't worry Shezza. The Chinese will still be on top. ;-)
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place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes

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#42332 - 28 Jan 07 22:11 Societal Change [Re: Piss Salon]
riccardo Offline
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Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Since the half-joking THREAD on loving all things Bush transformed itself into a healthy discussion on changing/improving basket-case societies such as Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and Indonesia and something about Sydney's Airport, I've decided to give that discussion a home of its own, here so I've moved all those posts from Bush to this one.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#42333 - 28 Jan 07 22:21 Re: Societal Change [Re: riccardo]
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Sydney airport was a sideline. The issue really is a very complex one:

Is it better to have a democratically elected (but incompetent and corrupt) government of your fellow countrymen, or an undemocratic (but very efficient) corporation or dictatorship.

In the Zimbabwe/Rhodesia example it was really a simple choice between having a government the same colour as you or starvation. They chose starvation.

So – I guess at the most basic level, at what point is a country capable of accepting democracy. Many countries in Africa simply are not sufficiently mature to elect leaders.

Is Indonesia up to the mark? I am not sure……

To compound the issue, we must also consider factors affecting democracy. Islam and the Catholic Church are both well known for ordering its followers to vote in a way chosen by its leaders. This is how both crackpot religions get themselves into power bases. Governments are forced to obey their instructions because of the massive block votes they control. Here in Australia controversial Muslim cleric Sheik Taj el-Din al Hilaly has ruled out standing for election to the NSW Parliament, but will endorse the Lebanese Muslim candidates expected to run in at least three south-western Sydney seats at the March state election. They will undoubtedly win the seats, because voting will be controlled from the Mosque. And so a minority religion will rise into power.

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#42335 - 28 Jan 07 22:29 Re: Societal Change [Re: riccardo]
riccardo Offline
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Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Here's the rest of them - pertaining largely to Lee Kwan Yew and RI. For some reason, I couldn't get them to move automatically with the rest, so I've done it manually and thrown all the posts into quotes here.....

#42165 - Fri Jan 26 2007 01:15 PM
Quoting: naga
"And our country will turn to the boring Singapore?"

No, your country will turn out to be a functional democracy (albeit with quirks), whereby religion is a personal matter only, all people can rely on public institutions for assistance without having to pay some lazy, dishonest prick first.

The country will then become internationally respected, your leaders taken seriously and your defence force and intelligence services will stop murdering your own citizens. People will come to your country because they genuinely want to, and the local population will have enough internal confidence & self esteem to accept them, and will stop blaming them for everything that goes wrong.

You will also have sporting champions winning medals in sports that people (inside and outside Indo) actually give a shite about...

People can marry their sweetheart of whatever faith without fear nor favour, Christians can practise their faith without fear of being run out of town or having to ask permission first..

All citizens will have the opportunity to get an education with a degree that actually means something outside Indonesia, foreign Indo workers will then be IT contractors, lawyers, engineers, bankers and professionals earning proper 'western' wages, instead of pembantu's, unskilled contruction workers and whores...

People will pay a reasonabley fair tax burden from the lowest income to the highest, which will fund these institutions, hence the govt and all its institutions will have proper budgets and resources to administer.

You will have a free and fair judiciary which can ajudicate all issues and all participants will get a 'fair go'; the death penalty will be abolished, so it can no longer be used as a political weapon.

That way the govt won't need to sacrifice three Christian scapegoats in order to appease the political Muslim mafia, because they are too scared of the organised backlash that will occur when they waste the Bali murderers...


"Does anyone can explain is it true that Tony Blair will not supporting Bush again beside for his support at the previous time"

Tony Blair is stepping down this year and will be replaced by Gordon Brown (another fuckwit), who will then become the unelected PM of Pommy-land.

People don't realise how much TB actually owed to US big biz, of whom, many bought public utilities in the UK, after laws that were passed by Blair when he got into office. If you offend big biz, you offend the Prez (i.e. Dubya), hence TB had to sell his arse to the devil, like the whore that he is, (just like the suck-hole Howard, in order to maintain good relations, thinking he would get a break in the future...fool

Unfortunately when your own country's servicemen/women and thousands of innocent Iraqi's are sacrificed, it tends to get a bid hard to defend the policy, especially when your own political party turns on you...



#42195 - Fri Jan 26 2007 09:35 PM

Quoting: Shesca
Mr Naga:
Hats off. It was a nice analysis. However, let me give my amateur opinion. Dont take me wrong, I am no political follower, but I am Indonesian. First of, I was half kidding. But I was very serious about Singapore being a damn boring country. I am no suicidal, but if I were to live there, I would shoot myself on my second week smile

I do agree about the fact that there are so many things that our country needs to fix in order for us to go forward instead of backward as we are now. It will take longer than several paragraphs if we really want to go through every single one of them. But Lee Kuan Yeow as our leader? Think again, honey. How big is Singapore and how many races and PEOPLE actually are living there? How many islands are there to manage? How much does that tiny island have compares to the abundant natural resources that we have, that has turned so many of us to greedy son of a bitch. Can he really turn our deep rooted corruption that has been with us even since Dutch collonization? The way so many generations of us have lived as listeners and doers instead of creative opinionated starters?

You earlier said: "...make religion irrelevant, create a work ethic and create public institutions that allow the average citizen to succeed, all managed by a 'clean' public service..."
Do you really think one Lee Kuan Yeow can make these all happen in INDONESIA? Do you know that even mentioning the possibility of making religion irrelevant in our countries is almost the same as making cute cartoons about Mohammad?

And that creating a work ethic of a nation that has to be whipped to move faster will take a lot more muscle and probably generations of educational system?

I bet you whatever you want that Lee Kuan Yeo, assuming that he wasn't, would turn into a suicidal grandpa, after being in power for say a year after seeing how "little" he could accomplish vs his "assumed" BIG dream. Just like me if I had to live in Singapore smile
If I were to guess, it would probably takes three Hitlers, and several Mr. Lees to make our dream into reality. With assumption that all are doing their job well.

Honey, I am so sorry. Again, I might be wrong, because I am nothing but just a simple Indonesian. But trust me, you have a lot to learn about my country smile


-------------------------

#42218 - Saturday Jan. 27 at 06:59 AM

Quoting: Polar Bear
I always find it strange that Indoesian is so corrupt, and yet is 80% Muslim. Doesn’t the Koran forbid that sort of thing? smile

But really – Im not sure about Lee Kwan, I first suggested a major corporation – eg Macquarie Bank (who own huge amounts of global infrastructure.

Corrpution is a strange thing. I don’t think I would get involved. But if anyone offered me a million dollars….


---------------

#42284 - Saturday Jan. 27 at 11:58 AM

Quoting: riccardo
Shesca, I've put up some stuff on Julian's "Singapore" thread in the Help/Advice section. I honestly don't think it deserves the "boring" label anymore. When they set about to do something it GETS DONE! They set out a few years ago to shed that "boring" label and make it a hip place, by loosening some restrictions on nightlife, giving tax breaks to bizpeople who want to open a club, bar, restaurant or other entertainment venues. They have serious opera now, all-night beach rave parties (mostly drug free, but PLENTY of alcohol) and the best food in Asia. (Bali is the best in Asia for Western food, but overall with their Asian food and Western, Singapore is number one.)

As far as the Lee Kwan Yew thing, it's more a concept not a literal suggestion. That concept, and confidence, that he instilled in Singaporeans starting in the 1960s is reaping big benefits now. That's what I mean, and I presume others, when we say RI needs a "Lee Kwan Yew" -- the concept, not the current 85-year-old retiree.



---------------------

#42302 - Saturday Jan. 27 at 04:30 PM

Quoting: Shesca
Riccardo:

I guess about how exciting Singapore is, is in the eye of the beholder. I went there last August, spent about almost a week there, for the fun purpose. I always avoid going to Singapore for the leisure purpose, that last time I went there doing so was way back in the late 90s. Still, I couldnt find too much change of Singapore that I knew then.

I guess why tourists are going there are due to the number one guaranteed safety, comfort and convenience. And Singapore is as close as they can get to South East Asia experience minus the polution, inconvenience, and possibility of having a safety issue.

I still didnt find the "very man made" Sentosa island to be that exciting, nor the "man made" night safari. And NOTHING is original in Singapore. I mean those people migrated from where they are from, for God's sake. I didnt care about the shopping because most brands they offer there are available in Indonesia. Price? Not a whole lot different, really. For some brands they might be slightly cheaper (certain brands of shoes, etc). Nor the clean streets with a lot of high rise buildings. I guess I tend to go for the nature whenever I go to visit a different country.

Night life? Hm... I honestly think Jakarta's night life is not that bad, so I dont really go for night entertainment whenever I visit a country. And thinking of spending several years working and living there drive me crazy because the country is so DAMN SMALL!!!! Moreover, the things are so in order that it drives me nuts. START MAKING MESS AND BREAK THE RULES, DAMN IT!!! That's the sentence that kept of came to my mind when I was there smile Call me crazy, but I still think Jakarta is much more exciting than Singapore.

About Mr. Lee, I understand what you mean. But STILL, think about the comparison of the two countries for the issues that I mentioned. I WASN'T talking about the OLD Mr. Lee. I know he did an amazing thing turning Singapore to where they are now. But you CANT simply apply whatever he did in Singapore to Indonesia. IT REALLY IS NOT THAT SIMPLE!!!!

Name one country in the world with the same condition as Indonesia, densely populated, hundreds of ethic groups living in, dominated by moslem, an archipelago with 13000 plus islands, VERY rich in natural resources, extremelly corrupted, who are even close to Singapore in the term of successfully managed country. NONE. Why? Because we are probably one of the most difficult case to solve. I am willing to give my life to whoever can do wonder to Indonesia within less than 10 years. But again, that's just my opinion. I dont go google search my opinion. So I guess it was all from my limited knowledge regarding politics. Therefore please correct me if Im wrong smile



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#42347 - 28 Jan 07 23:30 Re: Lee Kwan Yew & RI [Re: riccardo]
riccardo Offline
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Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
I don't want on tread on any toes, but Shesca, I've got my own theories (even tho' I wasn't born in RI) on some of that. Particularly the bit where you say:
Quoting: Shesca
But you CANT simply apply whatever he did in Singapore to Indonesia. IT REALLY IS NOT THAT SIMPLE!!!!


First of all no success story is ever "simple" and I don't think anyone, least of all myself, implied as much. But that is exactly what Lee did, he worked hard and long and instilled that in others to create what Singapore now is. The same "principle" could work here too, regardless of the number of islands, ethnicities etc. Instead of transforming 50,000 Singaporean civil servants into a highly proficient and professional group, He (or the concept of a someone like him) would have to do it in RI with 500,000 -- what's one "0" between friends after all.

Of course, he'd have to fire all 4 million current Indonesian civil servants, who neither serve nor are they remotely civil. And then train, or re-train, those 500,000 efficient, qualified people to run all the services of this country with no compromises. If they can't/won't do the job, they're gone -- hasta luego vato!

That won't be "simple" either, there will be riots, demos and general griping. But demos are good, because the government can see who all the idiots and troublemakers are, so LEE's new professional police force would just round 'em all up, frog march everyone in the demo out to Nuskambangan Prison Island and throw away the keys.

Now here's the real crux of the theory: I strongly believe that the real evil of the OrBa indocrination/re-education program lies in the fact that they managed to oppress three generations of Indonesian minds -- drilling into every brain this SIMPLE mantra "you can't fix the problems of the this country, so don't try and don't worry about it.." And then when nobody cared anymore, they proceeded to rape and plunder this country until we have what we have today -- a backward, corrupt civil service, overseen by a dysfunctional, Klepto-cratic government and 220 million citizens who have become indoctrinated into "believing" there is nothing they can do.
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#42356 - 29 Jan 07 02:42 Re: Lee Kwan Yew & RI [Re: riccardo]
Shesca Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Aug 06
Posts: 852
Loc: Jakarta
Ricc:

Nice lecture. Well, hope that one day this can really be applied to our country. Just want to clarify that I am not saying that there is nothing that we can do about our country. THERE IS. But what method is right and what method is wrong is noway to be proven, until we really apply it to our system. My point about giving my view regarding a skepticism of the ability of the honorable Mr. Lee to turn this country upside down is due to the fact that all he was managing was just one extremelly small country with one dominating race (plus all of the other aspects of differences which I am sure I dont need to mention one more time here). So if I had to put it in one sentence about what I am trying to say: You guys are overestimating Lee Kuan Yeow ability to do good to Indonesia. That was all. Of course I could be wrong, but NOBODY is right either.
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#42391 - 29 Jan 07 11:33 Re: Lee Kwan Yew & RI [Re: Shesca]
Polisi Tidur Offline
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Registered: 26 Jan 07
Posts: 47
Loc: Bikini Bottom
Many of the protesters you'd like to see locked up are the ones who ARE waking up from the generational OrBa stupidity/brainwashing pill. Why not give them a chance (and some support) to force some changes in their own government before you propose a return to a strongman system.

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#42403 - 30 Jan 07 00:14 Re: Lee Kwan Yew & RI [Re: Polisi Tidur]
riccardo Offline
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Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: Polisi Tidur
Many of the protesters you'd like to see locked up are the ones who ARE waking up from the generational OrBa stupidity/brainwashing pill. Why not give them a chance ...


A very astute observation indeed, however, a bit of clarification may be in order. I assume, PT, you were referring to my "locking up the folks in the demo" comment. Those protesters would actually be the 4 million corrupt bureaucrats fired from their jobs. These cancerous people are, in fact, the polar opposites of the pro-reformasi/pro-democracy/anti-corruption student activists that you rightly point out, are waking up from the OrBa brainwashing. These same student activists would likely be the ones replacing the corrupt civil servants under a Lee Kwan Yew-type leader.

I wouldn't label a Lee as a "strongman" either, more a straight-as-an-arrow professional and respected leader, a man who despises corruption and waste, and inspires -- not forces -- people to work hard for themselves and the nation as a whole.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#42410 - 30 Jan 07 01:03 Re: Lee Kwan Yew & RI [Re: riccardo]
Roy's Hair Offline
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He IS a strongman. Singaporean democracy is an utter joke. Opposition leaders are routinely hounded, dragged through the courts and bankrupted in the name of Singapore's Orwellian political system. And Orwellian IS the right word for a system that censors and spies to the extent that R of S does.
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#42412 - 30 Jan 07 01:11 Re: Lee Kwan Yew & RI [Re: Roy's Hair]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
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Loc: jakarta
...plus Singapore's wealth is at least partially propped up on the poverty of surrounding countries (i.e. here). And they harbour Indonesian corruptors...and it has a totally neutered creative/ artistic output ... and is it any wonder?? Question though..would you like to live in a crypto-fascist autocracy like Singapore and have money. Or be impoverished in a freer society?? Mental or physical impoverishment??
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#42413 - 30 Jan 07 01:13 Re: Lee Kwan Yew & RI [Re: Roy's Hair]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
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The Government of Singapore argues that censorship of violence and sexual themes is necessary as the Singaporean populace is deeply conservative, and censorship of political, racial and religious content is necessary to avoid upsetting the balance of Singapore's delicate multi-racial society. K Bhavani, spokesperson of the Ministry of Information, Communications and the Arts, has stated:
In relaxing our censorship policies, the Government needs to take into account the concerns and values of the majority of Singaporeans. Our people are still largely conservative. Hence, the Government needs to balance between providing greater space for free expression and the values upheld by the majority. [1]

Commentators such as Alex Au, on the other hand, argue that the true intention is to buttress the continued political dominance of the People's Action Party, and to do so partly by promoting the Government's social engineering efforts [2].
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Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#42414 - 30 Jan 07 01:15 Re: Lee Kwan Yew & RI [Re: Roy's Hair]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
that last one from Wikipedia. her's some more...



Films and videos
Further information: Cinema of Singapore

The importing, making, distributing or exhibiting of films in Singapore is governed by the Films Act of 1981. [3]

Movie censorship has historically been strict, although the introduction of the "R-21" rating now allows most major Hollywood features to be shown in Singapore, at least after cuts. The rating system was first introduced in 1991 with the R(A) rating to allow those aged 18 years and above to watch more adult type films. However, due to public objection, the rating system was revised and the age limit was lifted from 18 to 21 years old.[1]

Released films are presented to the Board of Film Censors (BFC) which classifies the films under different ratings for different groups of audiences:
G (General) - everyone
PG (Parental guidance) - everyone, advisable with an accompanying adult
NC16 (not for children under 16) - for above 16s, contains partial nudity and little violence
M18 (matured 18) - for above 18s, contains partial nudity(frontal), moderate violence and may contain religious issues
R21 (restricted 21) - for above 21s, contains nudity (sex scenes), violence, and may contain religious issues
Banned - contains issues that cause controversy in Singapore

Note: Any outright denigration of race or religion, matters that threaten national interest, or depictions of hardcore pornographic, offensive or deviant sexual activities are banned. Royston Tan's award-winning 15, a graphic depiction of Singapore's underbelly, was only allowed after over 20 scenes were cut.

[edit]
Party political films

The controversial Section 33 of the Films Act bans of the making, distribution and exhibition of "party political films", at pain of a fine not exceeding $100,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years. The Act further defines a "party political film" as any film or video which
(a) which is an advertisement made by or on behalf of any political party in Singapore or any body whose objects relate wholly or mainly to politics in Singapore, or any branch of such party or body; or
(b) which is made by any person and directed towards any political end in Singapore

Exception are, however, made for films "made solely for the purpose of reporting of current events", or informing or educating persons on the procedures and polling times of elections or referenda.

The law has been criticized by filmmakers for being vaguely worded; it is difficult to distinguish between a political film or a social one; indeed, the boundaries at times are blurred, as in I Not Stupid. In 2001, the short documentary called A Vision of Persistence on opposition politician J. B. Jeyaretnam was also banned for being a "party political film". The makers of the documentary, all lecturers at the Ngee Ann Polytechnic, later submitted written apologies and withdrew the documentary from being screened at the 2001 Singapore International Film Festival in April, having been told they could be charged in court. Another short documentary called Singapore Rebel by Martyn See, which documented Singapore Democratic Party leader Dr Chee Soon Juan's acts of civil disobedience, was banned from the 2005 Singapore International Film Festival on the same grounds and See is being investigated for possible violations of the Films Act.

On the other hand, Channel NewsAsia's five-part documentary series on Singapore's PAP ministers in 2005 were not considered a party political film. The government response was that the programme was part of current affairs and thus does not contravene the Films Act.

Since they do not concern the politics of Singapore, films that call out political beliefs of other countries, for example Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911, are allowed.

[edit]
Performing arts

The scripts of all plays to be performed in Singapore must be vetted in advance by the Media Development Authority (MDA), which has the right to ban any it views as "contrary to the public interest", with no right of appeal.

In 1994, performance artist Josef Ng protested against the arrest and caning of 12 homosexual men by caning slabs of tofu, then turning his back to the audience and snipping off some pubic hair. He was charged with committing an obscene act, banned from performing in public and his theatre group's grants were cancelled.[2]

In 2005, the MDA withheld the license for the play Human Lefts unless some scenes were edited and all references to the death penalty were removed. The play was originally written about the hanging of Shanmugam Murugesu and was to have been staged one day after the controversial execution of Australian national Nguyen Tuong Van. [3]

In August 2006, a play Smegma was banned by Media Development Authority which said that: "the play portrays Muslims in a negative light."[4]

[edit]
Print media
Further information: Media of Singapore

[edit]
Local press

With the sole exception of MediaCorp's daily freesheet Today, all daily newspapers including the flagship Straits Times are printed by Singapore Press Holdings, whose management shareholders are appointed by the government in accordance with the Newspaper and Printing Presses Act of 1974. While current shareholding structures does not imply direct governmental control on media content, their active presence promotes self-censorship amongst journalists without the need for open contestations between the press and the government. Reporters without Borders has ranked Singapore as 146th out of 167 surveyed countries in terms of freedom of the press.[5]

On 30 June 2006, blogger mrbrown wrote an article, titled "TODAY: S'poreans are fed, up with progress!", for his weekly opinion column in Today newspaper concerning the rising income gap and costs of living in Singapore. [6] Three days later, on July 3, an official from the Ministry of Information, Communications and the Arts published a response letter on the same newspaper calling mr brown a "partisan player" whose views "distort the truth". [7] On July 6, the newspaper suspended his column.[8] Fellow blogger Mr Miyagi subsequently resigned from his column for Today. This was followed by Today newspaper chief executive and editor-in-chief Mano Sabnani's resignation in November 2006. The action fuelled anger over the Internet due to the perceived heavy-handedness action taken by the government over criticisms.[9]

[edit]
Foreign publications

Foreign publications that carry articles the government considers slanderous, including The Economist and the Far Eastern Economic Review (FEER), have been subjected to defamation suits and/or had their circulations "gazetted" (restricted). The sale of Malaysian newspapers in Singapore is prohibited; a similar ban on the sale of newspapers from Singapore applies in Malaysia.

In August 2006, the government announced a tightening of rules on foreign publications previously exempt from the media code. Newsweek, Time, the Financial Times, the Far Eastern Economic Review and the International Herald Tribune will be required to appoint a publisher's representative in Singapore who could be sued, and to pay a security deposit of S$200,000. The move comes after FEER published an interview with Singaporean opposition leader Chee Soon Juan[10] In this interview, it was stated that leading members of the Singaporean government had "skeletons in their closets", this unsubstantiated statement violated defamation laws protecting a person's reputation. On 28 September 2006, FEER was banned for failing to comply with conditions imposed under the Newspaper and Printing Presses Act.[11]

[edit]
Pornography

Pornography is strictly prohibited in Singapore; this encompasses magazines such as Playboy or Penthouse. However, magazines which are deemed to contain "mature content" such as Cosmopolitan Magazine are free to be distributed at all stores with a "Parental Warning/not suitable for the young" label on its cover.

[edit]
Television
Further information: Broadcasting in Singapore

The state-owned MediaCorp controls all free-to-air terrestrial local TV channels licensed to broadcast in Singapore, as well as 14 radio channels. Pay TV channels are available on cable TV, but many programs were banned. For example, the popular HBO series Sex and the City was not permitted to be shown in Singapore until 2004, after its original run had ended. Private ownership of satellite dishes is illegal, though international TV broadcasts (such as CNN, BBC, etc.) are available on StarHub's cable TV. The Media Development Authority, through its Programme Advisory Committees for each of the four official languages [4], constantly monitors and provides feedback on broadcast content.

Owing to the Government's policy of promoting Mandarin Chinese, for many years local television was not allowed to show programmes in other dialects of Chinese. The Cantonese used by popular TV serials from Hong Kong had to be dubbed into Mandarin, while local television series or programmes may not use dialects. Similarly, local newspapers were not allowed to carry listings for Malaysia's TV3, which showed programmes in Cantonese. However, Hong Kong's TVB, broadcasting in Cantonese, is now available on cable.

The use of the local English-based creole Singlish is avoided by all broadcast media. While these is no formal prohibition, the popular Singlish sitcom Phua Chu Kang was singled out in a National Day rally speech [5], and use of the creole has been limited afterwards. The Programmes Advisory Committee for English TV and Radio Programmes also singled out the use of Singlish in local sitcoms in its 2005 annual report, saying they "contain excessive Singlish" and "this should be avoided as it could give the wrong impression, especially among the young, that Singlish is the standard of spoken English in Singapore" [6]

Graphic violence is regularly frowned upon, even when programmes were broadcast beyond primetime. Scenes depicting anything from blood splattering and/or essessive flow as a result of inflicted wounds to relatively bloodless scenes like neck fracturing are regularly censored from all local or foreign content. Local productions typically avoid depicting the local police or military personal as victims of violence, resulting in predictable storylines considered "ethically correct". The police, for example, are increasingly shown to rarely succumb to graphic violence or other unfortunate events, and even if they do, are typically shown to prevail ultimately, as depicted in police dramas Triple Nine and Heartlanders.

The latest annual report by the Advisory Committee for Chinese Programmes, for instance, chastised dramas such as Beyond the aXis of Truth 2 (police triller on the supernatural) and Wing of Desire (contemporary family-fued drama) for graphic violence, while giving credit to A Promise for Tomorrow, A New Life, A Child?s Hope, and so on, for the "positive messages" transmitted [7]. Hence, locally-produced dramas in recent decades are overwhelmingly family-based, with action-thrillers generally avoided.

[edit]
Internet

Internet services provided by the three major Internet Service Providers (ISPs) are subject to regulation by the Media Development Authority (MDA) to block websites containing material that may be a threat to public security, national defence, racial and religious harmony and public morality, and Police are given broad powers to intercept messages online. ISP-level blocks are, however, used sparingly with only some high-profile token sites like Playboy blocked. The Ministry of Education, Singapore blocks access to pornographic and similar objectionable Internet sites on its proxy servers. In 2005, MDA banned a gay website and fined another website following complaints that the sites contained offensive content. The banned website is said to have promoted promiscuous sexual behaviour and recruited underage boys for sex and nude photography. [12]

Government agencies have been known to use or threaten to use ligitation against bloggers and other Internet content providers. The first instance of such activity was against Sintercom in July 2001 when the founder, Dr Tan Chong Kee was asked to register the website under the nascent Singapore Broadcast Authority Act (now Media Development Authority). Dr Tan chose to shutdown Sintercom due to concerns over the ambiguity of the Act. In April 2005, a blogger, Chen Jiahao, then a graduate student at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, was made to apologise and shut down his blog containing criticisms on government agency A*STAR, after its Chairman Philip Yeo threatened to sue for defamation. In September 2005, 3 people were arrested and charged under the Sedition Act for posting racist comments on the Internet. Two were sentenced to imprisonment.[13] Later, the Teachers' Union announced that it is offering legal assistance to teachers who want to take legal action against students who defame them on their blogs, after five students from Saint Andrew's Junior College were suspended for three days for allegedly "flaming" two teachers and a vice-principal on their blogs. [14]

In the last few years, the government has taken a much tougher stand on Internet-related matters, including censorship. Proposed amendments to the Penal Code intends to hold Internet users liable for "causing public mischief", and give the authorities broader powers in curtailing freedom of speech.[9]
_________________________
Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#42415 - 30 Jan 07 01:18 Re: Lee Kwan Yew & RI [Re: Roy's Hair]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
I don't know why they'd ban porn though. The government there is currently trying to repopulate the place to relieve demographic pressure and produce the next generation of automatons
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#42421 - 30 Jan 07 01:49 Re: Lee Kwan Yew & RI [Re: Roy's Hair]
naga Offline
Member++

Registered: 18 Jan 07
Posts: 260
Loc: undisclosed location
"That's what I mean, and I presume others, when we say RI needs a "Lee Kwan Yew" -- the concept, not the current 85-year-old retiree. "

That's exactly what i meant, and he 'aint no retiree, he still runs the show with an iron fist, i bet the current PM (his son) still cops lectures from the old man when he gets home from school...err..work

The point really is that RI really needs a 'clean' authoritarian with a clear vision, takes the best pieces from functional democracies in the west and applies relevant eastern concepts to make it work.

"Singaporean democracy is an utter joke"

True, but also, Sg is an immature democracy aswell, they have only been independent since the early 60's and look how far they have developed, democracy is really the final phase for Sg's development and it will come, step-by-step...nothing will change until LKY dies, he still runs the country by remote control and people are shit-scared of him.

"Singapore's wealth is at least partially propped up on the poverty of surrounding countries"

The banking system is, especially with approx. 18,000 Indonesian millionaires registered there, but there is a lot more going on in the economy there and it will continue to thrive, since it is all pro-business.

The bottom line is people who live in Sg don't need democracy, because there is nothing more it can offer, Sg has 1st rate, infrastructure, education, health system, it's well defended, technologically sophisticated, high standard of living, low crime rates, low and fairly applied tax rates, and has ample opportunity for people who want to work hard and succeed.

Sure, they censor the shit out of the place, but excluding sex, violence and bad language from one's mind (especially kids) is a good thing imo...it used to be like that in Oz when morality and personal discipline meant something, now they are violations of one's human rights.

"Again, I might be wrong, because I am nothing but just a simple Indonesian."

Nice reply, although i think you interpret a few things too literally (which has already been addressed by other posters). First of all, don't sell yourself so short, soooo many Indonesians say...'but i am but a simple Indonesian'...blah, blah, blah...you shouldn't say that, it restricts your potential, and if you do that, you won't challenge the existing power strutcures in this place (they want you to be compliant & simple).





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