Forums and Chat for Indonesia's English-speaking community
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#39565 - 28 Dec 06 11:39 stereotypical Jakarta?
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Choco was arguing with me about stereotypes on another thread. As she pointed out:

Stereotype: A conclusion drawn based on selective test/sampling.

The argument is if a stereotype can rightly or wrongly be used as a true indicator for the majority……


So I will put a couple of stereotypes up here for discussion:

First, there is a stereotype that Indonesians are corrupt. It is a widely reported stereotype. I have experienced it once when a wereng Coklat shook me down for 50k for crossing the road. But it is a widely help stereotype.

So – can I say Indonesia is a corrupt nation or not? Its only a stereotype remember….

Then there is the inability to keep to times and deadlines. Its such a stereotype that you even have a name for it. Jam Keret. It is a widely reported stereotype. I have experienced it a few times, but it is a stereotype.

So – can I say Indonesians cannot keep to prearranged times or not? Its only a stereotype remember….

Comments please. Can I trust someone to turn up on time every time? Can I expect to have ot pay a bribe to get something done…..?

Top
#39567 - 28 Dec 06 12:05 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Polar Bear]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here

Fuck this -

Indonesians :-

Jump into bed with anything as soon as they are old enough to stand up

Rob each other blind at the faintest opportunity - love killing bules and chinese .

Kill their oldies by feeding them to the pigs alive .

Turn up late continuously - they consider it rude to be on time .
They are even late being born .

(karet = rubber - karat = rust )

Are corrupt as hell - forget the Police , even your best friend has to be paid to be your best friend

Are dirty , they rarely wash .

Any thing else you want to have a go at ?

This has been done at great length by others much more experienced than you - since you have started using expat as a source of reference - search for "kretek&3 year old&stupid comments" you should be able to find the thread - it is much more amusing than you whining on like a clapped out spin dryer .

Yes , they turn up late - no comprehension of time , and you can facilitate fairly much anything with money .

Much more amusing is someone fool enough to bung 50K for a pedestrian infringment - told you that you should learn some Indonesian - he was probably only asking for 500 rp .... should try some of your psychology on the old boy - or bring Professor Birdseed along to analyse his body language - shouldn't be difficult , the buggers are asleep most of the time .
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

Top
#39570 - 28 Dec 06 12:26 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
LOL - I was trying to be serious James smile smile

If you look at my post about Chocos "missing 5 minutes", where she accuses me of blackmail, you will see how i facilitate delivery. I managed to get an answer. Even then it was a garbage answer, and if I had been an employer I would have been far more brutal.

You hit the nail on the head re psychology though James. As we discussed the other day, we get all these people telling us to observe “saving face” and “cultural differences” whilst some Asian sits there smiling at us but delivering nothing. Usually he owes you money or effort. But you are encouraged to forget it and walk away. Perhaps, just perhaps, if we played hardball then the problem would be alleviated.

So seriously James, is rubber time and corruption just a stereotype, or is it (as Choc says) a Generalisation. Or is it a hard fact of life in JKT?

PS – I never go on Expat Forum, nor do I read it. Never have. I looked once but couldn’t follow the threads or characters.

Top
#39572 - 28 Dec 06 12:40 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Polar Bear]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Just out of interest , why did you cut and paste from Expat then ? Now then , don't tell porkies - I know you do have a profile - which you don't need if you don't post .
Starting to lose it Ross - stay away from the window .

You are the fucking authority on all things asian - in fact you are an authority on all things - you tell me .

Over to you Ross from the land of Ambrosia ( and that isn't the custard - captain)
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

Top
#39575 - 28 Dec 06 13:19 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Sorry Fred (ooops I mean James, lets keep the secret between us shall we), I did cut and past a girls post about looking for a bule. I forgot where I found it.

And I did register, but the site is so crappy and, well not to put too fine a point on it, you and your mates are all there mutually masturbating over some issue or other. Best I keep out of that sort of thing.

No, as Shesca and choco have so vehemently pointed out, I know fuck all about Asia. I am the first to admit it. So I am going to stick to asking questions from now on.

Which reminds me. Question time.
• Why is Indonesia the financial basket case of Asia?
• Why are the streets full of starving kids?
• Why doesn’t anyone fix the fucking pavement?
• Why do Indonesian drivers ignore road rules?
• Why will Australia have to give Indonesia AUD334 Million in aid next year?
• Why do more than half of Indonesia's 220 million people have incomes below the poverty line as defined by the World Bank?

Come on all you Asian experts. Lets have the answers Shesca. Come on Fred (ooops – I meant James) put the fag machine down and give me some answers.

I don’t know cos as you all say, I know fuck all about Asia. So help me with some answers…..

Top
#39577 - 28 Dec 06 13:30 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Polar Bear]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Silly boy - losing your grasp again - which wife jumped ? I know you told me .

James ain't Fred , and Fred ain't James - guess again - ask you new friend (don't tell me you can't remember your new friend.

Hey Ross , if you make tin whistles out of tin , what do you make fog horns out of ?


Bet you are logged in to Expat now Captain - sorry , one of your buddies gave you away ages ago .


I expect Australia will go on giving aid so that can get the benefit of cheap trainers and cheaper oil .

As for the rest - Wiki and Google will provide you the answers you require - you can get yourself another degree too - to stick on the wall of your bedsit .

What's that flying past the window ? - Ross's ex missus .

I am not sure I would share the same table as you - I reckon wherever you go , you get a bit more in your food than you bargain for .




Edited by James Hanratty (28 Dec 06 13:32)
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

Top
#39578 - 28 Dec 06 13:40 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Fred, mate, seriously, no ex of mine has ever jumped. My ex wife is breeding horses on farm at my expense. I wish she would fucking jump. One ex GF tried to push ME off a balcony....

but nope, all are alive apart from one who was murdered last year.

Fred, which post did you make sayingh you were off to Thailand. I can be buggered to look for it,

Top
#39583 - 28 Dec 06 14:07 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Polar Bear]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
There we go again Ross - I thought one of your ex-wives jumped , and you think James is Fred -

You do seem to attract bad luck don't you ?

If I have supper with you - will you invite the rest of your friends ? a table for two ?

Anyhow , must go , time to pack , off to Thailand tomorrow.
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

Top
#39585 - 28 Dec 06 14:09 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Fred, dont go, the baccy is falling out me fucking marlboro ya bastard.......

Top
#39586 - 28 Dec 06 14:17 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Polar Bear]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Sorry , got to , may I suggest you stick it up your arse Ross , which is where your head is .
Speak when I get there ,
Kind regards,
James.
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

Top
#39587 - 28 Dec 06 14:24 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Night shift at the fag factory Fred? Fuck me mate, you had Shesca believing that you were an engineer, when your just another journeyman spannerhand.

I guess life really is hard for you Fred. making fags aint exotic, and living in Indo isnt a lottery prize.

No wonder you get jealous of those "tourists" who fly in, wrap up a bit of business, shag some bitch you could only dream of, then fly out again.

dont worry mate, I am not like that.... not at all smile smile

snigger. snigger

Top
#39588 - 28 Dec 06 14:48 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Polar Bear]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
I guess being a refugee from Dad's Army ain't all that either Ross -

Why don't you get Shesca to PM me and check out my credentials - Oh sorry , forgot - she has joined the real world and thinks you are a prick .

Big Hat and Little Helmet .

It is a shame that all you got out of the army was a bullet wound to the brain and a trail of dodgy qualifications .

Lots of love ,
James

little PS for you (no not Penis , you have got that already)

Do you remember the lyrics of the Mud xmas song ? - go on sing them for me , in your bedsit. J
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

Top
#39590 - 28 Dec 06 22:04 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Well James its time to “Kimono wo nuide kudasai”

Ladies and gentlemen, James is non other than the Expat Forum buffoon Fred the Fag Man Foggle.

For those who don’t know Fred, he is the laughing stock of EF, where most members want him banned for being an oxygen thief.

Older readers may remember Fred being an asshole here a few months ago. Do a search for “Fred” and see what a laughing stock he really is.

Fred comes from Newcastle in the North of England. He served an apprenticeship as an electrician, attending night school. He managed to get a certificate. Yep – James Hanratty holds a certificate in electrical engineering. He makes false claims to be a Civil Engineer, and being a Chartered Engineer, however I am reliably informed that he isn’t. He could post his real name and I could check, but I guess he wouldn’t do that because he would then have been caught out.

This lack of education is the reason why he is so “anti” anyone who had a degree., and refuses to supply his CV to anyone.

The nearest Fred has been to civil engineering is driving a truck in the UK – Yep, Fred was a truck driver!!!

Sorry Shesca, you were conned by a truck driver with a certificate in joining wires up!

Fred now lives in Karawang with his wife and two daughters. The oldest is now seven, and apparently is bright and clever. Maybe someone else fathered her. Fred and his daughters all hold British citizenship, so that he can get out when things look bad. His poor wife is left holding Indonesian citizenship. She cannot take out British, because she doesn’t reside there, and anyway the house is in her name. Freds wife is pretty pissed off with Fred and his big talk and poor performance.

Why does he live in Karawang? Because that’s where the cigarettes are made, and Fred fixes fag rolling machines! Yes, Fred is a sparky in a Karawang Fag Factory. He doesn’t like to tell anyone because he knows it makes him look like a goon. In actual fact he wires up the drying machines. He was doing so as a contractor for Siemens and Rockwell, and worked on automated wrapping machines at one time. Now the Indians are here, and he is working for them. They will soon discover the bullshit levels and Fred will be back out on his backside.

Frd likes to think he is an international man of mystery, because he speaks Indonesian. He actually worked for two weeks in Seoul fixing fax machines, and he was a bit shocked to discover that his linguistic dexterity was actualy due to the ease with which people can learn Indonesian. He found Hangungmal to be much harder. But he never forgot the thrill, and his daily conversations are papered with “oh I may have ot go back to Korea tomorrow” comments.

Fred still tries to talk big, but its pretty hard when you are a Karawang fax machine mechanic. He tries to charge USD300 a day, but no one will pay him anything like that, and work is scarce.

In fact Fred is pretty fucked. Moving to Indonesia seemed fun all those years ago, but now he is stuck there. He couldn’t fit back into the UK, and his wife and kids would hate it. He cant get into somewhere like Australia cos we have strict rules on letting tossers in.

Anyone who doesn’t believe me, go take a look on expat forum, and read everyones comments about Fuckwit Fred. He even makes the same Civil engineering claims as Fred. Ohhhhh yes, one more thing. His IP address is 84.67.175.129

So Fred Fogle (AKA James Hanratty), this is your life…. (and it’s a pisspoor one at that)..

Top
#39593 - 28 Dec 06 22:58 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Polar Bear]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Still no answers to my steroetype questions. here they are;


Stereotype: A conclusion drawn based on selective test/sampling.

The argument is if a stereotype can rightly or wrongly be used as a true indicator for the majority……


So I will put a couple of stereotypes up here for discussion:

First, there is a stereotype that Indonesians are corrupt. It is a widely reported stereotype. I have experienced it once when a wereng Coklat shook me down for 50k for crossing the road. But it is a widely help stereotype.

So – can I say Indonesia is a corrupt nation or not? Its only a stereotype remember….

Then there is the inability to keep to times and deadlines. Its such a stereotype that you even have a name for it. Jam Keret. It is a widely reported stereotype. I have experienced it a few times, but it is a stereotype.

So – can I say Indonesians cannot keep to prearranged times or not? Its only a stereotype remember….

Comments please. Can I trust someone to turn up on time every time? Can I expect to have ot pay a bribe to get something done…..?


Oh yes, there is also my questions:

No, as Shesca and choco have so vehemently pointed out, I know fuck all about Asia. I am the first to admit it. So I am going to stick to asking questions from now on.

Which reminds me. Question time.
• Why is Indonesia the financial basket case of Asia?
• Why are the streets full of starving kids?
• Why doesn’t anyone fix the fucking pavement?
• Why do Indonesian drivers ignore road rules?
• Why will Australia have to give Indonesia AUD334 Million in aid next year?
• Why do more than half of Indonesia's 220 million people have incomes below the poverty line as defined by the World Bank?

Come on all you Asian experts. Lets have the answers Shesca. Come on Fred (ooops – I meant James) put the fag machine down and give me some answers.

I don’t know cos as you all say, I know fuck all about Asia. So help me with some answers…..

Top
#39594 - 28 Dec 06 23:21 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Polar Bear]
Choc_Cow Offline
Member**

Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak


Quoting: Polar Bear
Still no answers to my steroetype questions. here they are;


Stereotype: A conclusion drawn based on selective test/sampling.

The argument is if a stereotype can rightly or wrongly be used as a true indicator for the majority……


So I will put a couple of stereotypes up here for discussion:

First, there is a stereotype that Indonesians are corrupt. It is a widely reported stereotype.


Ahh poor Peebs, you're lost aren't you? you're not comparing like with like.

Corruption in indonesia is NOT a stereotype, it's a general/ widely known issue! (therefore it's a GENERALISATION). There are studies about it & unlike stereotype there are proper researches too Peebs! You picked the wrong example there

(what is it? uh oh you don't like inferior LED watches like me pointing out that Mr. Collector is wrong? don't sulk now)

Only ppl who has NO IDEA what they're talking about will think that indo corruption is a stereotype..


Top
#39595 - 28 Dec 06 23:29 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Polar Bear]
Choc_Cow Offline
Member**

Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
Hey i thought this thread is about stereotype issue. Stick to it.. Who cares if James = Fred.. or who cares about his personal life. He makes more sense to me (and i'm sure to others as well).







Top
#39596 - 28 Dec 06 23:38 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Choc_Cow]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quoting: Chocolatea


Quoting: Polar Bear
Still no answers to my steroetype questions. here they are;


Stereotype: A conclusion drawn based on selective test/sampling.

The argument is if a stereotype can rightly or wrongly be used as a true indicator for the majority……


So I will put a couple of stereotypes up here for discussion:

First, there is a stereotype that Indonesians are corrupt. It is a widely reported stereotype.


Ahh poor Peebs, you're lost aren't you? you're not comparing like with like.

Corruption in indonesia is NOT a stereotype, it's a general/ widely known issue! (therefore it's a GENERALISATION). There are studies about it & unlike stereotype there are proper researches too Peebs! You picked the wrong example there

(what is it? uh oh you don't like inferior LED watches like me pointing out that Mr. Collector is wrong? don't sulk now)

Only ppl who has NO IDEA what they're talking about will think that indo corruption is a stereotype..

Quoting: Chocolatea


Quoting: Polar Bear
Still no answers to my steroetype questions. here they are;


Stereotype: A conclusion drawn based on selective test/sampling.

The argument is if a stereotype can rightly or wrongly be used as a true indicator for the majority……


So I will put a couple of stereotypes up here for discussion:

First, there is a stereotype that Indonesians are corrupt. It is a widely reported stereotype.


Ahh poor Peebs, you're lost aren't you? you're not comparing like with like.

Corruption in indonesia is NOT a stereotype, it's a general/ widely known issue! (therefore it's a GENERALISATION). There are studies about it & unlike stereotype there are proper researches too Peebs! You picked the wrong example there

(what is it? uh oh you don't like inferior LED watches like me pointing out that Mr. Collector is wrong? don't sulk now)

Only ppl who has NO IDEA what they're talking about will think that indo corruption is a stereotype..



Hey – I was asking cos I didn’t know. Seems I know nothing.

So what you are telling me is (if I understand correctly) all Indonesians are corrupt, but Indonesian girls don’t fuck with bules.

Can you confirm that for me? I need your advice aunti Choco.

Top
#39597 - 28 Dec 06 23:43 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Polar Bear]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
And would it be stereotyping or generalising to say that Indonesian girls take forever to answer a simple yes/No question, and even when they do it is a garbage answer?

I really don’t know aunty Choco. It happened to me once…..

Top
#39598 - 28 Dec 06 23:48 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Polar Bear]
Choc_Cow Offline
Member**

Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
Well Uncle Peebs, that's another childish /irrelavant comment, but i'll play along anyway.

Garbage answer you reckon? hm i dont know one man's garbage could be another man's treasure, so they say..


Top
#39599 - 28 Dec 06 23:50 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Choc_Cow]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
So tell me Choco:

Why isn’t it comparing like with like? I really want to know.

Lots of bules tell me they get easy sex of Indonesian girls.

Lots of bules tell me they have to pay bribes in Indonesia.



Ohhhhh -you mean there is no research into how easy Indonesian girls are?

But – take a look at:


http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue10/surtees.html

Top
#39602 - 29 Dec 06 00:02 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Polar Bear]
Choc_Cow Offline
Member**

Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
Bhwahahaha! ermm did you read the link before you posted it? it's again irrelavant to your point. This study is about sex-work in urban indonesia. They screw anyone who pays Peebs, not just bules.

The only mention of foreigners is probably under no.38

"She generally serviced eight clients a week but occasionally served as many as three or four clients a day. Her clients were mostly foreigners—from the Middle East and Japan—and she was able to earn a reasonable salary"


(Huh? Middle East & Japan? ) wank lol!!!!!!!

Oh and by the way "Lots of Bules tell me things" & "lots of Girls PM/SMS me things" sounds really convincing. You are right!

Ok. i'm done here.




Top
#39605 - 29 Dec 06 01:26 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Choc_Cow]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
No Aunty Choc – I don’t understand. You have to help me here. I am trying to learn.

You say that :


Stereotype: A conclusion drawn based on selective test/sampling.
Generalisation: A conclusion drawn based on a wide scale survey.

and you said :"it's a general/ widely known issue! (therefore it's a GENERALISATION). There are studies about it & unlike stereotype there are proper researches too Peebs!"


The Surtees report was based upon a wide scale survey, wasn’t it?

The Surtees report was proper research. Right?

So the comments in it are generalisations? Am I right?


But the Surtees report said that “Business transactions in Indonesia are commonly smoothed by the provision of sexual services.[ While generally these services are provided by sex workers, in some circumstances young female professionals working in fields such as public relations, marketing and real estate may offer sexual services as a part of legitimate business transactions.

This practice also occurs in the field of real estate where the real estate agent may attempt to ensure the sale or rental of a property by offering sexual services

So it’s a generalisation? Its based upon research after all……

So I can’t say – Indonesian girls are easy with bules?

But I can say Real Estate agents fuck to get a sale?

Please help me Aunty Choc. I don’t understand.

Top
#39606 - 29 Dec 06 02:06 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Choc_Cow]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quoting: Chocolatea
Oh and by the way "Lots of Bules tell me things" & "lots of Girls PM/SMS me things" sounds really convincing.


but honey, when i actually posted one of the PM to convince everyone you went berserk!!!!

You begged me to remove the post, and be fair I did. Now you repond by accusing me of making unconvincing comments

what do you want me to do honey? Put the fucking post back up?

Give me the word if you are unconvinced and I will post alway with full force. I seem to have a lot of admissions on my PC about ID girls dating bules.

Mind you, as you and Shesca tell me I am wrong, they must all be fake…..

Top
#39609 - 29 Dec 06 03:34 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Choc_Cow]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quoting: Chocolatea
(what is it? uh oh you don't like inferior LED watches like me pointing out that Mr. Collector is wrong? don't sulk now)


i dont know if you are an inferior LCD honey.

lets do the test shall we?

Have you ever been with a bule? YES/NO

Answers on the back of a swatch box pls.






Top
#39675 - 31 Dec 06 05:17 Re: stereotypical Jakarta? [Re: Choc_Cow]
Orang Kanada Offline
Member*

Registered: 30 Sep 06
Posts: 621
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: Chocolatea
Hey i thought this thread is about stereotype issue. Stick to it.. Who cares if James = Fred.. or who cares about his personal life. He makes more sense to me (and i'm sure to others as well).



Don't be blind, Choco. You like James 'coz he appear to be on your side right now, but if he have any chances to shit on your head, he will.

About the thread, it's been discussed in one of Ricc's topic. It was very interesting, with links and all. I invite you to search for it. ('coz I don't remember where it was!)
_________________________
Spiderpig, spiderpig...

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  NetCop