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#39272 - 23 Dec 06 02:57 A MODEST PROPOSAL
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Corruption and lack of rule of law within the judiciary prevent this country from developing properly. A massive revolution in the courts and strict adherence to the rule of law would:
1. Increase FDI exponentially
2. Increase the tax base and tax revenue
3. Eliminate waste in gov't budgets especially in poverty and education funds
4. Eventually lead to real economic development for all and root out all the corrupt thieves.

So, to achieve this, the country must give up it's sovereignty over the courts and turn it over to the UN. The UN would then need to recruit extremely honest judges and prosecutors from all member states, particularly those in the top 10 of TI's corruption index.

The local judges and prosecutors could keep their "jobs" and salaries, but they'd be relegated to observer status alongside the real judges and prosecutors from another country.

The massive corruption in Indonesian courts has been substantiated by ICW, TI and UN agencies, and has been proven in many cases that have come to light, such as defendants admitting to bribes. This problem has been going on for decades and the so-called "mafia peradilan" is no secret to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear.

And there is no end in sight. There is no legal or political will to stop it or even contain it. Talk of "reform" has become empty rhetoric. A few well-meaning NGOs, some of the journos and the average folks-on-the-street know full well what is going on, but they're all powerless to do anything.

Therefore the legal institutions must be overhauled with foreign judges and prosecutors. It can't be avoided and it has to be started at the Supreme Court, the highest institution in the judiciary. Many believe that if the Supreme Court is independent, impartial, honest and competent it will have a trickle-down effect on the lower courts and, eventually, other legal institutions such as the police, prosecutors and legal counsel. (JP May 2006)

In a democratic system, offices and institutions lose their legitimacy when they are misused for private advantage. Though this is harmful in the established democracies, it is even more so in newly emerging ones. Accountable political leadership can not develop in a corrupt climate. Economically, corruption leads to the depletion of national wealth. It is often responsible for the funneling of scarce public resources to uneconomic high-profile projects, such as dams, power plants, pipelines and refineries, at the expense of less spectacular but more necessary infrastructure projects such as schools, hospitals and roads, or the supply of power and water to rural areas. Furthermore, it hinders the development of fair market structures and distorts competition, thereby deterring investment. The effect of corruption on the social fabric of society is the most damaging of all. It undermines people's trust in the political system, in its institutions and its leadership. Frustration and general apathy among a disillusioned public result in a weak civil society. That in turn clears the way for despots as well as democratically elected yet unscrupulous leaders to turn national assets into personal wealth. Demanding and paying bribes become the norm. Those unwilling to comply often emigrate, leaving the country drained of its most able and most honest citizens. (TI website)

Indonesian Corruption Watch (ICW) has deemed that from 1999 to 2006, there were 142 defendants exonerated in 77 corruption cases.
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#39278 - 23 Dec 06 03:09 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: riccardo]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
sounds a lot like colonialism. albeit by the UN.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#39280 - 23 Dec 06 03:27 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: KuKuKaChu]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Regardless of the label put on it, it's something that needs to be done. This is a humanitarian crisis of epic proportions. In the interest of humanity, the international community, is morally bound to release the 100 million starving people here from their suffering. This is the 4th most populous nation on earth with some of the richest resources in the world, there is no excuse for 107 million people being slowly starved to death by corrupt thieves.

The Cendana clique's Swiss bank accounts alone (estimated to be over US$30 billion in cash) would go a long way to freeing this country from poverty and backwardness, but not a judge or prosecutor in the country will touch them.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#39281 - 23 Dec 06 04:42 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: riccardo]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Obviously Ricc you have never worked with the UN.

Let me tell you how it would go:

Kuku gets caught murdering a wife. Pays local police to forget about the case, bypassing the UN courts.

Kuku gets caught murdering wife. Case takes 36 years to go to court. Kuku dead of old age before first appearance.

Kuku gets caught murdering wife. Human rights commission challenge the legality of the court. Seen as “test case” No real decision is made. Kuku trial is held over pending the decision.

Kuku gets caught murdering wife. Judge comes from Angola. He openly asks for a Rp5 Mil bribe from Kuku (in open court).

Kuku gets caught murdering wife. UN fanatic says it was a racist attack, and wants Kuku tried for war crimes in Poland.

And on, and on, and on.



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#39282 - 23 Dec 06 04:42 ** [Re: riccardo]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Post deleted by riccardo
**IT WAS A DOUBLE POST OF THE ONE ABOVE


Edited by riccardo (24 Dec 06 03:59)

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#39283 - 23 Dec 06 04:47 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Polar Bear]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: Polar Bear
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Obviously Ricc you have never worked with the UN.

actually, he has smile for quite a number of years ...

and just for the record: I didn't do it! I was framed!! it was a set up!! you can't prove nothing!!!
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#39287 - 23 Dec 06 06:48 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: Polar Bear
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Obviously Ricc you have never worked with the UN.

actually, he has smile for quite a number of years ...

and just for the record: I didn't do it! I was framed!! it was a set up!! you can't prove nothing!!!


Now that is an absolutely terrifying thought - and you want to bring the UN in to sort out Indonesia's affairs - better bring Soeharto back.
That is like leaving Myra Hindley to look after the kids.
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#39288 - 23 Dec 06 07:11 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
UN forces – just a bunch of thugs?
By Mark Steyn
Last Updated: 12:01am GMT 15/02/2005

It's a good basic axiom that if you take a quart of ice-cream and a quart of dog faeces and mix 'em together the result will taste more like the latter than the former. That's the problem with the UN. If you make the free nations and the thug states members of the same club, the danger isn't that they'll meet each other half-way but that the free world winds up going three-quarters, seven-eighths of the way. Thus the Oil-for-Fraud scandal: in the end, Saddam Hussein had a much shrewder understanding of the way the UN works than Bush and Blair did.

And, of course, corrupt organisations rarely stop at just one kind. If you don't want to bulk up your pension by skimming the Oil-for-Food programme, don't worry, whatever your bag, the UN can find somewhere that suits - in West Africa, it's Sex-for-Food, with aid workers demanding sexual services from locals as young as four; in Cambodia, it's drug dealing; in Kenya, it's the refugee extortion racket; in the Balkans, sex slaves.

NOTE TO PB: EDITED DUE TO LENGTH. CAN WE JUST HAVE THE FIRST COUPLE OF PARAGRAPHS AND A LINK?


Edited by riccardo (24 Dec 06 03:56)

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#39289 - 23 Dec 06 07:11 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Pension top ups by skimming the Oil-for-Food programme
Sex-for-Food in West Africa
Drug dealing in Cambodia
Refugee extortion racket in Kenya,
Sex slaves in the Balkans.
US Staff shagging 12-year-old girls as part of a UN paedophile network
Systemic UN child sex in at least 50 per cent of their missions?

fuck me, if the UN discovered Blok M they would be in JKT longer than Palestine....

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#39290 - 23 Dec 06 07:11 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quoting: James Hanratty
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: Polar Bear
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Obviously Ricc you have never worked with the UN.

actually, he has smile for quite a number of years ...

and just for the record: I didn't do it! I was framed!! it was a set up!! you can't prove nothing!!!






Now that is an absolutely terrifying thought - and you want to bring the UN in to sort out Indonesia's affairs - better bring Soeharto back.
That is like leaving Myra Hindley to look after the kids.



Ahhhh Myra was a real scream......

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#39292 - 23 Dec 06 07:39 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Polar Bear]
Piss Salon Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 4039
Loc: Jakpus
I am in agreement with the UN taking over Indonesia, if only to ensure the survival of Indonesia's rainforests and coral reefs. They are going way to quickly due to corruption and the lack of rule of law. Once they are gone, they are ... ummm ... gone.

The conservation of Indonesia's rainforests and reefs should be an international effort.

I hope that wasn't too green sounding. Sorry.
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place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes

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#39293 - 23 Dec 06 07:41 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Polar Bear]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
The United Nations opposes sex tourism citing health, social and cultural consequences for both tourist home countries and destination countries, especially in situations exploiting gender, age, social and economic inequalities in sex tourism destinations………………………….


W YORK, Feb. 10, 2005 — Widespread allegations of sexual exploitation and abuse of Congolese women, boys and girls have been made against U.N. personnel who were sent to help and protect them — despite a so-called zero tolerance policy touted by the United Nations toward such behavior.

SAME AS ABOVE, THANKS


Edited by riccardo (24 Dec 06 03:58)

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#39295 - 23 Dec 06 08:14 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Polar Bear]
Piss Salon Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 4039
Loc: Jakpus
I see the UN opened fire on protesters in Haiti yesterday, injuring two.

UNITED NATIONS: Reputation is crumbling

The reputation of the United Nations, as a peacekeeping force, is not good.

It's bad enough that peacekeepers can't keep the peace - anyone recall what Hezbollah did in Lebanon? - but, more and more, they seem to be preying on those they were sent to protect.

U.N. peacekeepers have been accused of raping children and turning them into prostitutes in Haiti and Liberia, according to The Washington Post.

Similar stories have emerged from Burundi, Ivory Coast and Sierra Leone.

Likewise in Congo, Cambodia, Kosovo and Bosnia.

EDITED FOR LENGTH, NEED A LINK PLEASE


Edited by riccardo (24 Dec 06 04:01)

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#39296 - 23 Dec 06 08:21 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Polar Bear]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
I agree PB that the UN has had a less-than-stellar record running many things, but don't get hung up on those 2 letters and other niggling details. It's the principle I'm talking about. The UN (or the EU or ASEAN+3 or ICJ or APEC) would merely be the recruiter and paymaster. As I mentioned, they would be proper, and incorruptible, judges drawn from only the Top 10 countries in the TI index (see below), who'd do like a 3-year stint here and be relieved by another group for at least the next 15 years. The facilitator and manager of the whole thing would have to be a thoroughly professional group like the INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION OF JURISTS http://www.icj.org/ and/or a professional management organization.

The devil is indeed in the details, but let's not get hung up on the little micro-management headaches. First we have to get the idea to sink in -- using the carrot, stick or both -- then get RI gov't on side and admit they've failed beyond all doubt and there is no hope of reform as is. And thus they've got to do something extremely radical and unprecedented like this.

TOP 10 in TI's CPI
Finland
Iceland
New Zealand
Denmark
Singapore
Sweden
Switzerland
Norway
Australia
Netherlands

See the full list here:
http://transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2006
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#39297 - 23 Dec 06 08:28 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: riccardo]
Piss Salon Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 4039
Loc: Jakpus
It must have something to do with cold climates.


Edited by riccardo (24 Dec 06 04:04)

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#39299 - 23 Dec 06 08:47 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Piss Salon]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Yes, particularly the frigid climate in Singapore.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#39300 - 23 Dec 06 09:48 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: riccardo]
Piss Salon Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 4039
Loc: Jakpus
_________________________
place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes

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#39316 - 23 Dec 06 12:42 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Piss Salon]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Perhaps the UN would be sturdier and more professional if the US weren't constantly trying to undermine it and instead paid the billion odd dollars it owes the organization
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Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#39320 - 23 Dec 06 15:56 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: riccardo]
Orang Kanada Offline
Member*

Registered: 30 Sep 06
Posts: 621
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: riccardo


TOP 10 in TI's CPI
Finland
Iceland
New Zealand
Denmark
Singapore
Sweden
Switzerland
Norway
Australia
Netherlands

See the full list here:
http://transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2006


I'm a little off topic but, Canada rank 14?

It's surprising after last year's AdScam... I was expecting to find Canada in the bottom (but still higher than Indonesia wink )

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Spiderpig, spiderpig...

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#39323 - 24 Dec 06 03:58 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Orang Kanada]
Just Offline
Member+++

Registered: 09 Dec 06
Posts: 457
Loc: Obviously not your place!
Narcist! LOL (Referring to O.K. comment bout Canada!). Oops...I think I am OOT! Sorry!!! grin


Edited by Just (24 Dec 06 04:09)

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#39324 - 24 Dec 06 04:06 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Just]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: Just
Narcist! LOL


What or who are you referring to JUST?
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#39325 - 24 Dec 06 04:08 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: riccardo]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Meanwhile, getting back on topic. If the international community (preferably some organization not named UN) did decide to do this, what does everyone think the main arguments would be from Indonesian politicians, officials and commentators? AND why?
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#39327 - 24 Dec 06 04:19 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: riccardo]
Just Offline
Member+++

Registered: 09 Dec 06
Posts: 457
Loc: Obviously not your place!
I am no politicians nor officials. But I am ashamed to see and hear about the practice of our law and corruption here. If it can bring out justice and minimize corruption (at least! Would be good if it's gone permanently!), why not?! But it's like mission impossible, isn't it? I don't think anyone would be happy to be dictated by outsiders.
James Hanratty said: why not bring Soeharto back? Won't that be worst?


Edited by Just (24 Dec 06 04:27)

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#39332 - 24 Dec 06 04:45 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Just]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Yes, the loss of sovereignty over the courts and feeling of being dictated to would be the biggest obstacles. I think, however, this ultra-extreme nationalism thing is a huge hindrance in itself. Look at Aceh, they finally agreed to let the Aceh Monitoring Mission (AMM) come in -- despite all the blustery rhetoric by extreme nationalists in Java -- and the AMM did a great job of making peace, disarming GAM and setting that province toward proper development. The AMM was very sensitive to the nationalism issue and carefully explained that they were working shoulder-to-shoulder with Indonesians to achieve something good. This court proposal would have to be similar. The foreign organization would have to convince people that they would leave in a few years, work in partnership with RI and not dictate anything to anyone. They'd simply follow the RI law in meting out real justice in the courts.

I think the loudest screams would come from the really corrupt people; the ones afraid of getting caught. And that alone would be valuable so the nation could see who they were.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#39334 - 24 Dec 06 08:52 Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL [Re: Just]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: Just
I am no politicians nor officials. But I am ashamed to see and hear about the practice of our law and corruption here. If it can bring out justice and minimize corruption (at least! Would be good if it's gone permanently!), why not?! But it's like mission impossible, isn't it? I don't think anyone would be happy to be dictated by outsiders.
James Hanratty said: why not bring Soeharto back? Won't that be worst?


No , it won't , at least there was order amongst the chaos .
Why is it that the west wants to stick it's nose in ?
"To protect the World's dwindling natural resources" - well , start in China then - our chinese friends will be a world force to be reckoned with , but at what expense to the environment ?
Does it matter how much we try to reduce our carbon emissions when whatever we do the chinese spew carbon dioxide and much worse without any concern ?
So , the UN will steam in on their white chargers , and stop KKN will they ? What a load of Tosh , it is inbred into the nature of people - you can't change it just like that .
How many of you have had for example household staff - you give them 200% better conditions than they have ever had , you pay them much more than they could expect to get elsewhere - everything about their situation is much better than they could ever expect to get elsewhere - and what happens ? they balls it up by nicking something of no value , but is easily missed . Until you change that attitude , you have no chance of changing the system higher up .
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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