Gentlemen, Revolutionaries, Scholars & Bules
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#38974 - 20 Dec 06 02:23 Islam vs. Islam
riccardo Offline
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Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
With the recent outbreak of a brutal, full-scale war in Gaza between Hamas and Fatah (both are Palestinian groups and both are reactionary Islamists), it makes one wonder about all this so-called solidarity within the "ummat" of the Religion of Peace.

HAMAS AND FATAH WARRIORS




In Sudan, there is a genocide happening right now where the dark-skinned Islamist communities are being systematically slaughtered by the light-skinned Islamists who control the Sudanese government.

GENOCIDE IN OUR TIME



In Iraq, they rarely even bother with "western" targets and the Sunnis and Shiites have been killing each other in record numbers in the most brutal ways imaginable. The Kurds don't really like either of them and also are involved in the bloodshed.

Shiite mosque bombed by Sunni "brothers"


Shiites burn 6 Sunnis alive



I know some people may use the tried-and-true old knee-jerk response: "It's all your fault because your passport happens to have the same three letters that Bush's has, and he started it all, and he supports Israel, and they stopped giving money to Hamas, and they punked those poor innocent fellows in Abu Ghraib, and Sudan has no oil to protect and the Americans won the Olympics, and we know they're corrupt because of Enron and Lance Armstrong's clean drug tests and...."

But regardless of those somewhat valid excuses for all this bloodshed, it still begs the question of where is this worldwide Muslim community that we hear about? Why don't THEY try to stop all of it?

And in INDONESIA the "ummat" has been extremely silent! I have seen very little on the Hamas-Fatah war in the papers -- usually just an agency blurb of a few paragraphs -- and NOTHING about Sudan. Maybe it's better that way, just keep them confounded and quiet.

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#38978 - 20 Dec 06 02:44 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: riccardo]
Patung Offline
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Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
Never underestimate how dumb people are or how easily they will let their background/worldview shape their opinions or dictate what they choose to see and what they choose to ignore.
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#38982 - 20 Dec 06 02:56 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Patung]
riccardo Offline
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Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: patung
Never underestimate how dumb people are or how easily they will let their background/worldview shape their opinions or dictate what they choose to see and what they choose to ignore.


I hear you loud and clear, brother.
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#38992 - 20 Dec 06 04:52 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: riccardo]
sloopy Offline
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Registered: 14 Feb 06
Posts: 32
Loc: very bad part of town
what is actually ricc try to tell us?
I dont understand... enlight me fellas...
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#38998 - 20 Dec 06 06:37 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: sloopy]
riccardo Offline
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Registered: 12 Oct 05
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Amazing! A Post by Snoopy.
Well, nobody is "telling" anybody anything, snoop. I posed a few questions and wondered if anyone had the answers or partial answers or theories.
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#39061 - 21 Dec 06 08:09 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: riccardo]
Piss Salon Offline
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Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 4039
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Snoopy posted? Wow.

I have a feeling you will like this Riccardo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w77sLtz754
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place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes

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#39083 - 21 Dec 06 13:00 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Piss Salon]
Patung Offline
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Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
Funny video but Baker is a dumbass not because Ahhmidget is a nutjob, he may or may not be, but because Iran has practical reasons for making a play for the whole shite bloc in the middle east now rather than later. Their fertility rate is down to 1.7, by the time their population starts aging and contracting they won't have enough oil to keep exporting - spells DISASTER. They do it now, go for a new Persian Empire containing all the main shite areas plus Azerbaijan=oil and gas while they've still got loads of young men with nothing to do but get killed, or never.

Before the First World War the French and German general staffs sat down and looked at their respective countries fertility rates - the French soon saw that if there was going to be a war it better happen quick or they wouldn't have enough young men to stand in front of the machine guns. Same principle with the Iranians.

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#39084 - 21 Dec 06 14:41 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Patung]
Piss Salon Offline
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Registered: 27 Jun 06
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Interesting theory there Patung but one I can't swallow.
_________________________
place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes

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#39088 - 21 Dec 06 21:03 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Piss Salon]
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
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Ricc asked some questions.

I will provide some answers, or at least theoretical answers.

What you see in Palestine with Hamas and Fatah, what you see in Iraq with Sunni and Shiite, and what you see in Sudan, is the same thing. Read the next sentence carefully:


TRIBAL FUCKING WARFARE.


It has NOTHING to do with religion.

You may as well claim that the Napoleonic Wars, World War 1, World War 2 were a result of the Christian belief of the protagonists!

It is a sad fact that Islam has taken root in countries where the polulation had “certain” characteristics. Believe me, if Islam had never arrived Ahmed would still be slaughtering his neighbours. Their unruliness, their child like attitude, is embedded in them.

I know this is a politically incorrect thing to to say, however I am going to say it:

DIFFERENT GENTIC STRAINS HAVE DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS.

Why don’t Indonesians fight? They are simply too idle to bother.

You know that, I know that, Kuku and Patung know that, and lets be honest, every Indonesian on this site knows that. But no one says it…….


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#39090 - 21 Dec 06 21:58 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Polar Bear]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: Polar Bear
DIFFERENT GENTIC STRAINS HAVE DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS.

Why don’t Indonesians fight? They are simply too idle to bother.

whilst i would not entirely rule out that genetic elements may play a small role in indonesians apparent acquiencence to injustice and their tendency to tribalism, education and cultural factors are far stronger factors. take an indonesian child out of the indonesian cultural environment and place them in, say, the west, and their outlooks and attitudes will exactly reflect that new context. for better and worse.

and idleness is not a factor. indonesians are, in general, not lazy. certainly, many lack motivation, they aren't pro-active, and their skills are often sorely lacking; but they are not lazy.
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#39094 - 21 Dec 06 23:24 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
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I would disagree. We have been brainwashed all of our lives by political correctness and bullshit.

As I child I was told “colour is only skin deep”. I went away wondering – if that is true, why the fuck do black dudes have huge dicks….

By the late 70s it was accepted that genetics affected physical appearance and development. Black runners were the fastest in the world, and there was no arguing with it.

Evidence now suggests that genetic breeding also affects character.

I don’t know why it has taken this long to work out. Any dog breeder will tell you character is genetic. Look at the tenacious bulldog, the loyal Labrador etc.

It didn’t suit the political climate of the 60s, 70s, or 80s, but by the mid 90s we had begun to understand the obvious. Genetic background influences our personality.

http://www.npatheory.com/

Although it is universally accepted that both genetic and environmental factors (or "nature and nurture") comprise personality, the relevant genes have yet to be identified.[2] Studies of the heritability of personality factors conducted with identical and fraternal twins emphasize the importance of genetics in behavior.[3] The NPA model acknowledges the possible importance of environment and culture in personality but emphasizes that it is the genetic, or structural, factors that first need to be identified.

The NPA model acknowledges that the genetic bases of personality are themselves complex. It assumes at least four tiers to this genetic basis:

* male or female gender

* character type based on the three NPA traits

* temperament, or the degree of activity or excitability of an individual in the pavlovian sense

* other facets of personality, such as Raymond Cattell's 16 Personality Factors, Hans Eysenck's P-E-N model of personality, or the life style approaches of enneagram theory.

The NPA model, thus, focuses on only the second of these four tiers, acknowledging that temperament and other facets of personality may involve a large number of genes.



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#39097 - 21 Dec 06 23:51 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Polar Bear]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: Polar Bear
I would disagree. We have been brainwashed all of our lives by political correctness and bullshit.

i am not disagreeing that genetics plays a part in an individuals' abilities or lack thereof. i spent many years studying zoology and can speak with a modicum of authority on this matter. the question is always, to what *extent* does genetics play a role, as opposed to cultural and other factors; the real battleground is over the *extent* of the influence of genetics.

sections of the Left often mindlessly deny any genetic role in such matters as intellectual ability, physical capabitity and personality. they are wrong. and stupid to even consider that genetics are not a powerful determinant of aspects of personality and indiviual ability.

however, genetics are not everything. culture and education are also very powerful determinants.


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#39098 - 22 Dec 06 00:12 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Polar Bear]
riccardo Offline
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Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Tribal warfare was at the heart of the Aceh-Jawa wars, and have always been; dating back to the 8th century. At least once a week in the papers, we read about massive inter-village riots somewhere in this vast archipelago called Indonesia. They are sparked by seemingly trivial things; guy gets drunk in rival village, loses card game and smashes his glass on the floor before storming out. All the men of each tribe (village) gather together and gird themselves for battle, then commence running amok. The Dayaks and Madurese was a tribal conflagration, the rival tribes that regularly do battle in Jakarta's ethnically segregated kampongs is tribal and the bloody brawls between political party supporters that rage every time there is an election is tribal. There are almost daily school brawls that rage on with no solution.** The 8th graders fight the 9th graders or School #13 fights with School #20, and inevitably a 12-year-old kid ends up dead. In universities here, the students from the Engineering Department do battle with students from the Political-Social Department. All of these conflicts and so many more are tribal in nature.

**a solution I've been suggesting for years is that the gov't fund sports facilities and coaches at every school in the nation and put these kids in regular after-school sports programs. It would also help the country win some medals at the Asian games!
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#39099 - 22 Dec 06 00:24 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
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Which brings us back to the constant squabbling in the Middle East and North Africa.

Almost One Million people died in Rwanda in less than 100 days in 1994. Ethnic Tutsis and Hutus were slaughtered. Rwanda was 52.7% Roman Catholic 52.7%, 24% Protestant, 10.45 Adventist, and only 1.9% Muslim.

Had they been 70-80% Muslim Ricc would be citing it as another example.

The truth is they were Christian fuckwits.


Almost 4m people have died in the Democratic Republic of Congo since 1997. the Hema and Lendu tribes are busy wiping each other off the face of the earth. The congo was approximately 60% Roman Catholic, 30% Protestant. Muslims accounted for less than 2% and all lived in Brazzaville or Pointe-Noire.


Four million, and not one Muslim involved. Again if there had, Ricc would be citing it.

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#39103 - 22 Dec 06 00:50 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: riccardo]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: riccardo
**a solution I've been suggesting for years is that the gov't fund sports facilities and coaches at every school in the nation and put these kids in regular after-school sports programs. It would also help the country win some medals at the Asian games!

smile you're starting to sound evangelical about this, riccardo! maybe time for you to do something about it! there's plenty of EU grant money out there for the taking!
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#39106 - 22 Dec 06 00:56 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Polar Bear]
riccardo Offline
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Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: Polar Bear

Had they been 70-80% Muslim Ricc would be citing it as another example.
...
Four million, and not one Muslim involved. Again if there had, Ricc would be citing it.


Indeed I would have. What I'm wondering about is the apparent hypocrisy. When the secular Israeli military launches strikes on Hamas or Hisbollocks, the "ummat" goes nuts and claim it is a holy war and must defend against THE JEW as muslims are being killed. When secular Bush destroys and occupies Afghanistan and Iraq, the "ummat" goes jihad and say it's a Christian Crusade because muslims are being killed. None of these are religion-based conflicts, but the "ummat" gets all hot and bothered and claim they are.

The Hamas-Fatah war is not a religious issue, but muslims are being killed, and the "ummat" now looks hypocritical, even confused as to which tribe they should support. It exposes a serious ignorance and lack of consistency in their oft-cited "principles" of defending the killing of muslims anywhere.

For instance, if you ask a muslim here why he bothers expending so much energy on hating Israel (it affects RI 0%), his Pavlovian response is: "they kill muslims and we must defend all muslims everywhere."

But now when there is Muslim-Muslim killing, they seem utterly perplexed, and their "principles" lose all credibility.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#39109 - 22 Dec 06 01:01 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: riccardo]
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Because like all religions, its a load of bollox.

Chrisians are not supposed to kill each other either. When they do the Church keeps as quiet as a mouse.

Having a religion doenst mean you suddenly acquire compassion or common sense. usually it is the opposite.... frown

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#39110 - 22 Dec 06 01:07 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Polar Bear]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: Polar Bear
Having a religion doenst mean you suddenly acquire compassion or common sense. usually it is the opposite.... frown

the sooner that religion is recognised and considered a notifiable disease, the better.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#39111 - 22 Dec 06 01:08 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: riccardo]
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
agreed.

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#39120 - 22 Dec 06 01:57 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Polar Bear]
riccardo Offline
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Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
I won't agree. Because it would more than a little disturbing to agree with something posited by a naked man. ;-)
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#39124 - 22 Dec 06 02:11 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: riccardo]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: riccardo
I won't agree. Because it would more than a little disturbing to agree with something posited by a naked man. ;-)

he's not naked. he's wearing an officer's cap.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#39186 - 22 Dec 06 07:07 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Piss Salon Offline
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Registered: 27 Jun 06
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Loc: Jakpus
Amen.

To the religious question at least.

I mean it is beyond my comprehension how a person can believe in a god sitting atop a cloud somewhere controlling (or failing to control) the whole sorry state of affairs. Are these people insane? If I walked into a psyciatric hospital on say Planet X and told them that Zarbog created their swampy environment in 7 days, Morflob was his son and their saviour, and here is a lovely little undecipherable book to prove it all, I would be committed. Or become a film star. One of the two.
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place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes

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#39189 - 22 Dec 06 07:22 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Piss Salon]
Piss Salon Offline
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Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 4039
Loc: Jakpus
And I see that Mohammed, and its most common alternative spelling Muhammad, is now more popular than 'George' in the UK.
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place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes

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#39192 - 22 Dec 06 07:45 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Piss Salon]
Piss Salon Offline
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Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 4039
Loc: Jakpus
This is the real root cause of terrorism; the growing gap between the haves and haven'ts.

This is simply sickening.

Cut and paste:

Morgan Stanley CEO John Mack's record for the biggest-ever bonus on Wall Street didn't last even a week - it was smashed by the $US53.4 million ($69 million) that Goldman Sachs gave its chief executive, Lloyd Blankfein.

The bonanza for Blankfein included a cash bonus of $US27.3 million ($35 million), with the rest paid in stock and options.

He took the helm of the investment bank in June after US President George Bush nominated Henry Paulson to be Treasury secretary.

The record payday, disclosed by Goldman Sachs Group Inc. in a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission on Tuesday, breaks the one set only five days earlier when Morgan Stanley disclosed that it paid Mack $US40 million ($51 million) in stock and options.

Mack, 62, rejoined Morgan Stanley 18 months earlier in a bid to turn around the company after the departure of its previous chief executive Philip Purcell.

Mack's short-lived record beat the one set in 2005 by Goldman's Paulson, who was given $US38.3 million ($49 million).

_________________________
place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes

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#39194 - 22 Dec 06 08:08 Re: Islam vs. Islam [Re: Piss Salon]
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I can make a suggestion.

Be born in the Bronx to poor parents.

Get into Harvard on a scholarship, graduate with a Law Degree.

Go work as a corporate tax lawyer for the firm of Donovan, Leisure, Newton & Irvine for seven years.

Then join Goldman's commodities trading arm, J. Aron, as a gold bar and coin salesman. Do the shitty hard yards selling gold to assholes. It’s a big step down from being a Lawyer, but it gets you into Goldmans.

Work so hard that within 14 years you head the Currency and Commodities Division.

Work even harder, so that 3 years later you are appointed co-head of the Fixed Income, Currency and Commodities Division.

Work incredibly hard for another 5 years, until you are made a Vice Chairman of Goldman Sachs.

Work even harder for 2 years, and you get made President and Chief Operating Officer.

Drive the entire company so hard that it makes unprecedented record net earnings of $9.5 billion.

Then get a bonus. A big one.

Alternatively, teach a bit of English and shag the local tarts in downtown Jakarta.

(Lloyd didn’t bitch about that cute piece of ass you were pumping last night).

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