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#33296 - 24 Jun 06 18:12 Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Below please find one of Riccardo's book reviews:

BOOK TITLE: Minorities, Modernity and the emerging nation Christians in Indonesia, A Biographical Approach

AUTHOR: Gerry Van Klinken

PUBLISHER: KITLV Press


One of the unfortunate realities of history is that, as an infamous 1940’s German leader said, “History is written by the victors.” In so many situations where one group gains power, they often neglect -- sometimes by oversight, sometimes by design – to acknowledge the important contributions of a group or individual that is perceived as a rival or a threat. Growing up in the U.S. during the height of the Cold War, I never read in my school textbooks about the valiant, heroic contributions of the Russians in WWII, and how they were such a crucial part of the Allied victory. We only got the bloodbath that was the Battle of Stalingrad in 1941-2.

Such is the nature of man perhaps, so it is always interesting to read history of the marginalized groups who the powers-that-be would rather have us all forget. And such is the case in Indonesia, with regard to the contribution by Christians to independence.

It is well documented that the Dutch colonists were particularly neglectful of the indigenous population of the Dutch East Indies for centuries. However, in the early 1900s with Liberalism all the rage in Europe, there was pressure on the Governor-General in Batavia to educate and employ the local population. Bowing to pressure, the administration addressed the situation in a limited way. Many of the beneficiaries of the new policy were “those that we can work with” – in that case the Christian population who were considered more loyal to the administration.

A few decades later with Liberalism evolving into talk of independence, led by indigenous, Dutch-educated Christians using their limited influence within the church and government, began moving toward empowering more of the local population – all ethnic groups and religions – out of a sense of true nationalism.

Van Klinken chose to focus this historical work on five key Christian men, Amir Sjarifoeddin, Bishop Soegijapranata, Kasimo, Moelia and Ratu Langie, to illustrate very extensively, that without people such as these, Indonesian independence may not have occurred until many more decades had passed. However, they are barely remembered. As far as I could determine, none are mentioned in school history books and none has a statue, street or holiday in their honor. Sadly, the accomplishments of these true Indonesian patriots have largely become forgotten.
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#33297 - 27 Jun 06 07:50 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Sounds like you are reviewing the actual events, and not the book itself. What did you think of the book Riccardo, was it fair, was it corrupt, did it bore you, did it grip you, what did you learn from this book? What suprised you? what was obvious before you even opened it?

Cheers, i await your feedback.
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#33298 - 27 Jun 06 12:17 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Great stuff magpie -- My intent was to pique interest among a diverse audience of expats and others with interest in such things. The author is a well-respected academic and Indonesianist, so I knew it would be a thorough professional work, and it was. It neither bored me nor gripped me. It was not a thriller, or a page-turner, or one that 'you just can't put down', but it enriched me, a bit like investing in a bit of empty land out beyond the suburbs -- nothing exciting about it, but in time you will be enriched. It was a good work of historical non-fiction that contributed to my overall understanding of this country and the psychology and dichotomy between ethnic groups here; and religions and subsets within each. It was five separate stories in one -- a biography on each man.
AND because of the nature of things, this book is a crucial part of recorded history, that could well have been lost to succeeding generations because, as is by now clear, these five men are viewed as "outsiders/minorities" in a sense, and the powers-that-be are not interested in (and in some cases vehemently opposed to) highlighting the heroism and accomplishments of these men. In fact after reading it, a good argument could be made that Indonesian independence might not have come about in the '40s, but much later -- and the delicious irony is that it was independence from the Dutch, spurred on by Dutch-educated Indonesians.
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#33299 - 27 Jun 06 19:56 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
hanabi Offline
Member+++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 436
Loc: Here and there...
Riccardo! One question. Why GRSB? I was asking KuKu whether the forum division is on the topic basis, like politics, or on the poster/people basis. Anyway, you're the boss here so now I'm asking you. What happens to non GRSB?

Btw, I wasn't a good student back in school, but I do remember some of those names, Amir Sjarifoeddin, Kasimo, and Ratu Langie, from my history class. Don't know about the statues. I only know the pizza man and the big one of Ronald McD in Sarinah. wink So you'd like to see more statues? I prefer to see lots of nudity. Never ask me about the street, but I'll let you know if I find one. And I'd love to have more holidays. So search more patriots, either Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, or just wanker ones. laugh
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Crossing the bridge of reason... "Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absentminded. Someone sober will worry about things going badly. Let the lover be."

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#33300 - 27 Jun 06 20:15 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
This GRSB as you call it is just what it is, a blog-type area with the occasional thought-provoking post on more in-depth subjects concerning mostly Indonesia. Not necessarily politics, see the ones with the famous sports quotes or the Hunter S. Thompson bit.

Just a different angle.

We're all diverse humans with lots of interests and JakChat is trying to represent as many of those interests as possible, sex, love, relationships, sport, news, politics, beer, food, humor etc. etc...
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#33301 - 27 Jun 06 20:15 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
hanabi Offline
Member+++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 436
Loc: Here and there...
Ok, I just checked Indonesian public holidays this year.

Jan 1 New Year's Day
Jan 10 Celebration of Hadj
Jan 29 Chinese New Year's Day
Jan 31 Islamic New Year's Day
Mar 30 Hindu New Year's Day
Apr 10 Birthday of the Prophet Muhammad SAW
Apr 14 Good Friday
May 13 Birthday of the Buddha
May 25 Ascension Day of Jesus Christ
Aug 17 National Day of Indonesia
Aug 21 Enlightenment Day of the Prophet Muhammad SAW
Oct 24-25 Celebration of Idul Fitri Day
Dec 25 Christmas Day
Dec 31 Celebration of Hadj

Damn! Not even a day to honor any patriots. What a big crime!
_________________________
Crossing the bridge of reason... "Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absentminded. Someone sober will worry about things going badly. Let the lover be."

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#33302 - 27 Jun 06 20:22 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
hanabi Offline
Member+++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 436
Loc: Here and there...
I understand about different interests. But actually I was asking if you were addressing certain group of people by GRSB. So what about non GRSB? Not welcome?
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Crossing the bridge of reason... "Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absentminded. Someone sober will worry about things going badly. Let the lover be."

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#33303 - 27 Jun 06 20:58 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Everybody is welcome. And it's gratis!
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#33304 - 27 Jun 06 21:04 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
you know, the editor of that book, Gerry Van Klinken, is a long time indonesianist. edits a long-running mag called "inside indonesia" that features mainly western academic perspectives. he also spent a few years as the resident director of the ACICIS program in UGM (in-country studies for mainly Australian university students doing asian studies).
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#33305 - 28 Jun 06 02:31 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
hanabi Offline
Member+++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 436
Loc: Here and there...
Ok, so GRSB are everybody. I'm not smart enough to follow your reasoning. confused confused

Quote:
As far as I could determine, none are mentioned in school history books and none has a statue, street or holiday in their honor.

these five men are viewed as "outsiders/minorities" in a sense, and the powers-that-be are not interested in (and in some cases vehemently opposed to) highlighting the heroism and accomplishments of these men.
Does that imply that other heroes/heroines got proper appreciations? What's the point?

I don't fancy politics and heroism. Indonesia itself is a product of colonialism. Not to forget that it's not independent yet, at least from the IMF and some multinational enterprises. Whatever rules the world nowadays...

Did you conclude that Christians are being oppressed by Muslim in Indonesia because of lack of recognition to those 5 Christian patriots? Don't you think that you need to know more about Indonesian demographics, the society characters, when the influence of wahabism came to Indonesia, what has been really in power, like military, among other facts? Maybe most Indonesians don't give it a shit, for being busy to the thought of what to eat, how to provide food, on the following day.

Sorry if I've been questioning too much. I hate being criticizing. But perhaps it's because I expect more since you're a moderator and some readers may rely on your opinions and take them as truths. I appreciate KuKu for his understanding of Indonesia.

Sigh... I'm afraid that I'll do more if I read other threads. I'll quit then... wink
_________________________
Crossing the bridge of reason... "Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absentminded. Someone sober will worry about things going badly. Let the lover be."

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#33306 - 28 Jun 06 04:29 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Quote:
Originally posted by hanabi:

Damn! Not even a day to honor any patriots. What a big crime!
How about you celebrate my birthday instead.......

Aug 17 National Day of Indonesia(and the birth date of Magpie)
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"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#33307 - 28 Jun 06 08:43 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
hanabi Offline
Member+++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 436
Loc: Here and there...
Magpie! I'll celebrate it for sure, my hero's day. How about nude parade? laugh
_________________________
Crossing the bridge of reason... "Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absentminded. Someone sober will worry about things going badly. Let the lover be."

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#33308 - 28 Jun 06 09:03 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Quote:
Originally posted by hanabi:
Magpie! I'll celebrate it for sure, my hero's day. How about nude parade? laugh
Well I would, but I have two problems......

1) if I displayed myself, my wife would cut my dick off, then I wouldnt be much use to anyone.....except for Banci's! laugh

2) I will be drinking a lot of beer the night before...probably, and if I send you a nude hungover picture of Magpie, chances are you would throw up! wink
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#33309 - 28 Jun 06 09:08 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
actually indonesia does have a "heros day": hari pahlawan on november 10. it's just not a holiday, that's all. ABRI likes to show off their "prowess" in gymkhana-like demonstrations on that day.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#33310 - 28 Jun 06 13:12 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quote:
Originally posted by hanabi:
[QB] Ok, so GRSB are everybody. I'm not smart enough to follow your reasoning.
It's actually quite simple. Everyone is "Welcome", but if it's not your cup of tea, then why get so distressed when a foreigner, who has researched RI/SE Asia for over 25 years, knows the truth. Just because the government education system under ORBA did not 'educate' people, but instead employed Thought Reform for 3 decades, is now not an excuse for holding on to the lies and propaganda. The younger generation, now between 15 and 30, are slowly starting to understand, but it is the people in the 30-50 age group, who are still holding on to the propaganda and refuse to acknowledge it when someone tries to point out the true situation.

Though reform is the alteration of a person's basic attitudes and beliefs by outside manipulation. The term usually relates closely to brainwashing and mind control.

And finally, NO, i was not saying that "muslims are oppressing Christians", It would seem that you came to that conclusion on your own. Is that what you think the point of the book was?
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#33311 - 28 Jun 06 21:13 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
hanabi Offline
Member+++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 436
Loc: Here and there...
Riccardo,

I wasn't arguing your very right to name your own forum whatever. It's really your choice. My question was simply like what GRSB is supposed to mean. And it's also your choice whether or not to answer the question. Let's say I question for the question itself just like to live for the life itself.

Quote:
why get so distressed when a foreigner, who has researched RI/SE Asia for over 25 years, knows the truth
Why did you feel that way? It's good that you know the truth. Cause I don't and will never. I'm happy for knowing nothing, so I would doubt it if I'd get brainwashed except by myself. About the propaganda, what is not propaganda now? I'm glad that I have no TV.

I like multi cultures and languages, but I don't really like putting people in groups as if we were not the same human beings. I personally don't like dichotomization and categorization unless for scientific purposes.

I'm kinda indecisive except at work and I usually write feeling dreamy posts. So if you said that I was distressed, maybe I still had some aggressive attitude left from work at the time. I'm sorry then. I thought I was only responding on what you've posted.

Quote:
As far as I could determine, none are mentioned in school history books and none has a statue, street or holiday in their honor.
And I said that I've heard some of the names from school. I could only represent my school, but maybe you were referring to other school history books. About the statue and holiday, you said that as if other patriots got their own statues and holidays. And I've mentioned that I don't know about the street.

Quote:
And finally, NO, i was not saying that "muslims are oppressing Christians", It would seem that you came to that conclusion on your own. Is that what you think the point of the book was?
I didn't say anything about the book. Guess it's some historical or biographical book. Maybe I was assuming that you were assuming something based on some dichotomized statements you've made, like "a group or individual that is perceived as a rival or a threat", "the marginalized groups who the powers-that-be would rather have us all forget", "the Christian population who were considered more loyal to the administration", "they are barely remembered" (as if patriots were remembered based on their religions), "the accomplishments of these true Indonesian patriots have largely become forgotten", "these five men are viewed as "outsiders/minorities" in a sense, and the powers-that-be are not interested in (and in some cases vehemently opposed to) highlighting the heroism and accomplishments of these men" (as if other patriots got appreciated enough), and "contributed to my overall understanding of this country and the psychology and dichotomy between ethnic groups here; and religions and subsets within each". I was guessing that the contradictory thing of Christians in Indonesia is Muslims. So I was wrong.

Anyway, maybe it was also my mistake. I'm not familiar with the concept of blogs, where you can state whatever you like. So please accept my apology. I'll argue no more.
_________________________
Crossing the bridge of reason... "Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absentminded. Someone sober will worry about things going badly. Let the lover be."

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#33312 - 28 Jun 06 21:17 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
hanabi Offline
Member+++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 436
Loc: Here and there...
Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie:
Quote:
Originally posted by hanabi:
Magpie! I'll celebrate it for sure, my hero's day. How about nude parade? laugh
Well I would, but I have two problems......

1) if I displayed myself, my wife would cut my dick off, then I wouldnt be much use to anyone.....except for Banci's! laugh

2) I will be drinking a lot of beer the night before...probably, and if I send you a nude hungover picture of Magpie, chances are you would throw up! wink
Magpie, I don't like violence, so I'll take the second option. There's still a chance I wouldn't throw up! laugh
_________________________
Crossing the bridge of reason... "Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absentminded. Someone sober will worry about things going badly. Let the lover be."

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#33313 - 28 Jun 06 22:21 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quote:
Originally posted by hanabi:
Riccardo,

I wasn't arguing your very right to name your own forum whatever. It's really your choice. My question was simply like what GRSB is supposed to mean.
Gracious sakes, it's just a name. It means whatever you want it to mean.

we want to try to make it a bit more serious, JakChat has lots of other forums to discuss your sexual conquests and desires.

Maybe if i put like this: Sometimes on TV or Radio there are serious programs for news and commentary and other times there are comedy shows or drama sinetron or music concerts. This channel you are in here is more like the news/commentary program. So if you change the station when the news/commentary comes on maybe this too is not your cup of tea. Understand?

And so if you want to post stuff about nude banci, please find the appropriate station, unless it relates to the topic here.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#33314 - 29 Jun 06 05:12 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Apologies about getting off topic.

Riccardo, I am now wondering where you would recommend I look for getting this book. Possibly recommendations for bookshops in your area, online, and for me personally, a good bookshop in Bandung. Also what did it cost you, and if I enjoyed this book, other things you make think I will be interested in?

Thanks
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#33315 - 29 Jun 06 06:59 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
The problem is:

Quote: "when a foreigner, who has researched RI/SE Asia for over 25 years, knows the truth"

There is no “Truth”. It is only one individuals perspective of events.


Unless someone here has knowledge of events outside the public domain then the whole discussion becomes either boring repetition of facts, wild speculation or rhetoric.

Repetition of facts is boring. We did that at school.

Speculation is dangerous. Wars and riots start with speculation.

Rhetoric is a waste of bandwidth (yes, I am guilty as charged)

IMHO trying to instil order onto a chat site is like putting traffic lights in a cattle stampede.

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#33316 - 29 Jun 06 21:35 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie:
Apologies about getting off topic.

Riccardo, I am now wondering where you would recommend I look for getting this book. Possibly recommendations for bookshops in your area, online, and for me personally, a good bookshop in Bandung. Also what did it cost you, and if I enjoyed this book, other things you make think I will be interested in?

Thanks
Sorry it's been so long since I've replied, I've been tied up.

I'm not sure where you can find the book. It was given to my then-chief editor direct from the publishers and passed on to me to read and review. I imagine if you come to Jakarta they'd have it at QB books or Gramedia book shops. Or you can try Amazon.com
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#69108 - 31 Jan 08 20:35 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle [Re: riccardo]
matulanda Offline
Member

Registered: 31 Jan 08
Posts: 1
Loc: Jakarta
................ none has a statue, street or holiday in their honor. ............. (??????)
Ricardo! You should fly to Manado and do also visit Tondano!

There are SO MANY things named RATU LANGIE (or RATULANGI) like a street, an airport, a view statues, A University, a Monument and what have you .....
Even in Jakarta (your hometown) is a street by that name.

Matulanda

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#69153 - 01 Feb 08 14:02 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle [Re: matulanda]
Piss Salon Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 4039
Loc: Jakpus
And the bloody awful statue of Pattimura in Ambon. A giant waving a machete if I remember correctly. Kind of appropriate though given the recent bloodbath.
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#71805 - 16 Mar 08 19:59 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle [Re: Piss Salon]
Oldman Offline
Member++

Registered: 24 Dec 07
Posts: 210
Loc: Jakarta
Why don't they build a statue for Pak Harto yet? He's a hero. He defended Yokyakarta?
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#71807 - 16 Mar 08 20:21 Re: Review on Christians in Indonesia's revolutionary struggle [Re: Oldman]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Where did you and the Pak have your photo taken together Mr. O?


Attachments
suharto.jpg


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