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#30906 - 02 Jun 06 20:02 Haditha
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I have removed my photo, because I don’t want to embarrass any military body with the following comments:

A group of US Soldier now face murder charges for an apparent massacre at Haditha.

Yes it is a horrible act, women and children were shot in cold blood.

The US soldiers were part of a group who were attacked by a roadside bomb. These are triggered remotely as the soldiers patrol past. The 3 houses attacked by the US soldiers were the ONLY habitation in the area. Undoubtedly someone there trigged the bomb, and many of the people in at least one of those houses knew what was about to happen and did fuck all to stop it.

If the US army did MORE of this the fucking stupid Iraqis would stop hiding and assisting murderers. If you associate with people who murder in this manner, you can expect to get treated the same way that they do.

Sadly, the majority of the murdering Iraqis who kill US soldiers will never be punished, and will brag to their children about what they did. They will probably have migrated to the USA by the time US Soldiers are released from jail.

Would I have gone in there and massacred the inhabitants of those three houses if my soldiers had been killed by a roadside bomb? FUCKING RIGHT I WOULD.

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#30907 - 02 Jun 06 21:37 Re: Haditha
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
you're going to have to do a lot better than that to stir up a controversy! smile

i don't believe you frankly. no, actually, i *do* believe that you *feel* the way that you do; that you greatly resent the double standards that are applied in relation to the bahaviour of iraqi and american combatants. but when it comes down to it, i think you'd let your brain take over! smile

this sort of reminds me of the capital punishment debate, where people come out and say "hey, i'll pull the trigger on the bastard" etc etc. which misses the point, in my view, which is that the state has no right to take away human life. that would not stop me as a person, however, taking things into my own hands and, say, killing a cold-blooded child murderer or a serial killer. that, however, is me as a person. the state as an institution should have no right to take life.

there's no harm with sometimes thinking with your dick, but the state -- especially a western state -- must be held to higher principles, even when those principles appear to be going against it. if we don't uphold these principles, then we must ask ourselves: what the fuck are we fighting for?? are we sending our men to die or be maimed to defend our national egos? or our civilisation?
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30908 - 02 Jun 06 23:49 Re: Haditha
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Gentlemen!

Ahem, I have worked in the country in question! Both in peace time and in war! The vast majority of the civilian population are good! I have very close Iraqi friends!

Haditha, should never have happened. It did! The stress of any occupation force (that is what it is) on armed forces will reach "break point" and something has to give!

I am with PB, I have been there! Bleeding heart liberals wake up! (No offence Kuku), there is only one way to sort that mess out and it is firepower!

Until the liberals of this world understand this: There will be no peace in Iraq!
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#30909 - 03 Jun 06 08:57 Re: Haditha
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
but this misses one of my points: winning military victories doesn't always win wars. certainly not this war. there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that to "win" militarily in arab countries requires invaders to demonstrate an equal or greater amount of uncontrolled brutality and senseless violence.

richard demonstrated this during the crusades; he won militarily in most cases. ultimately, however, he lost the war. just like the americans are going to lose this one, military victories or not.

the question is, what is this war about? is about defending western cilivisation and values? or is it about american oil supplies?
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30910 - 03 Jun 06 09:16 Re: Haditha
Choc_Cow Offline
Member**

Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
hatred breeds hatred.. i just feel that the longer this war is going, the more people will die, and the more die, the more hatred will consume both parties.

Would this war be going on like generations do you think? or would it be abandoned it at the end? because i honestly think that winning the war would probably lead to a genocide of a particular tribe..

Whose liberalism is it going to be?

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#30911 - 03 Jun 06 09:20 Re: Haditha
Choc_Cow Offline
Member**

Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
And i know that on the other hand.. leaving iraq now .. & letting the mess take over will be very cruel as well.

I just feel sorry for the men& women who're tangled in this web.

Outta here to lick some grass!

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#30912 - 03 Jun 06 09:24 Re: Haditha
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
What this escapade started out as and what it has become are two separate issues. It is a bit like the threads on JakChat, there is a Topic Header, a little discussion on that topic and invariably, diversification from said topic to "all and anything".

The "all and anything" within Iraq today is the fact that in the post "Saddam" era, not one of the coalition leaders would ever have imagined the reality of the political meltdown that occurred.

All of the current factions had been held pretty well in "check" by the old regime. When they became unfettered, the lack of education, the awakening of the new "Islamic" values (beit shiite or sunni)had not been taken into acccount.

The fact that the vast majority of the population had never known freedom was not considered, specifically how they would react to this freedom!

It is now clear how they reacted. They went about their businesss in the same way the old regime did! By Terror.

This is not about Arabs vs Coalition Forces. This is Arabs vs Arabs. Neighbour vs Neighbour. Maybe we should have learned from the Balkans.

Yes, this conflict was started to protect the global (read western) economic structure. It is no longer this war! This is now a battle to attempt to straighten out a conflict between rival religious factions who know no other way to resolve issues other than to destroy anything which stands in their path.

Ask any of the opponents in this debate what they ultimately want as an end result and they cannot give a definitive answer. They do not have a clear vision of their goals and aims. Their current vision is merely to wipe out their opposition.

If the presence of external armed forces can ultimately force a settlement, I think that this is positive, the alternative which is to withdraw these forces and allow Iraqui's to settle this deal themselves does not bear thinking about.
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#30913 - 03 Jun 06 15:32 Re: Haditha
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
You don’t understand my point. I feel sorry for anyone who dies in Iraq, and it should not be in the mess it is currently in.

However, the Iraqis involved SHOULD NOT have sheltered the bombers and they paid the price for doing so.

Iraq will only get better when EVERYONE there takes some responsibility for what is going on. Turning as blind eye is a way of life for Arabs, and it is one of the principle reasons for the appealing bloodshed in most Arabic countries. Go take a look at Lebanon (especially the Beka Valley), Syria, Gaza (where Hamas and Fatah are killing each other and every man woman and child who gets in the way) etc.

Until Arabs realise that ALL LIFE is precious, and this logic of indifference to the pain, death and suffering of anyone who is not “family”, they will continue to live surrounded by lawlessness and death.

If that death involves people I care about then I will teach them very fucking quickly not to do it.

Read about LTCOL Colin Mitchell in Aden, where he told the Arabs in no uncertain terms, “if you harm my men, I will kill you”.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Aden/700.htm

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#30914 - 03 Jun 06 18:05 Re: Haditha
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
I doubt the Americans will ever have the will to take the necessarily brutal steps needed as has been pointed out. Ain't gonna happen. Not after the sixties and Vietnam, when America lost much of the confidence in itself, as has all of the western world.

Better they withdraw themselves to bases around the main towns and cities, guaranteeing that no regime change occurs, guaranteeing overall integrity of the place, but not getting too involved in the shia/sunni war, which is what it's all about now. Or bring in Russian troops. laugh

The Kurds have got their northern haven, they are sorted, now it remains for shias and sunnis to sort themselves out, ultimately separating each into their own areas.
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#30915 - 04 Jun 06 10:37 Re: Haditha
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
i doubt that there is ever going to be a good time for the US to withdraw from iraq. no matter what, there will be a bloodbath. so, just let them at it ... just make sure it's quarrantined so as not to infect neighbouring states.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30916 - 04 Jun 06 10:49 Re: Haditha
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by Dilligaf:
If the presence of external armed forces can ultimately force a settlement, I think that this is positive, the alternative which is to withdraw these forces and allow Iraqui's to settle this deal themselves does not bear thinking about.
it may not bear thinking about, but it may well be the only way. ultimately, outsiders cannot force citizens in countries like iraq to behave in a civilised manner. iraqis have to fix this problem themselves, at their own cost. the US of course bears a very heavy moral responsibility for bringing on this situation in the first place.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30917 - 04 Jun 06 11:03 Re: Haditha
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by KuKuKaChu:
[QUOTE] iraqis have to fix this problem themselves, at their own cost.
Exactly my point. And until they behave like humans, the world has the right to treat them as less than human.

you earn the treatment you get....

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#30918 - 06 Jun 06 03:02 Re: Haditha
juminten Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Dec 05
Posts: 3870
Loc: disana-disini
CNN arguments yesterday night! one reporter who was in iraq all the time with marines, said that everything they do has to be cleared with a commanding officer. They just can't go clearing houses without the permission of higher-ups.

in a combat, lets say, when a bullet comes toward me from "fred faggot" and I turn around and see PB's head is blown-off,...sure I will blow off the whole EF ! will cut their balls off too!
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#30919 - 06 Jun 06 08:21 Re: Haditha
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Rules of engagement are incredibly complex and impossible to enforce in the fog of war. Combat is an emotional action, not a rational one. If it were rational no one would move froward from cover.

If we don’t like young men going crazy with guns and killing people we shouldn’t form armies, train them and equip them with weapons.

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#30920 - 06 Jun 06 08:25 Re: Haditha
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
It is worthwhile the public remembering the bombing campaigns of WW2. When night after night, British and American aircraft destroyed German cities, targeting innocent civilians, men women and children. German aircraft were doing exactly the same thing.

Tell me please, what is the difference between the dead civilians at Haditha, and the dead civilians of Coventry, London, Dresden and Berlin?

If you change these men with deliberately killing civilians, then you must also charge 1 million WW2 bomber crews……

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#30921 - 06 Jun 06 09:19 Re: Haditha
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
It is worthwhile the public remembering the bombing campaigns of WW2. When night after night, British and American aircraft destroyed German cities, targeting innocent civilians, men women and children. German aircraft were doing exactly the same thing.

Tell me please, what is the difference between the dead civilians at Haditha, and the dead civilians of Coventry, London, Dresden and Berlin?

If you change these men with deliberately killing civilians, then you must also charge 1 million WW2 bomber crews……
war ain't cricket.
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30922 - 06 Jun 06 13:39 Re: Haditha
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Sad that it is so, when good men set out to kill each other to further political or religious aims, and women and children live in fear of death or mutilation. I wonder how any of these firebrands that encourage fighting would wet their pants if they had to stand, bat in hand, and face the likes of Harold Larwood and Bill Voce……

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#30923 - 06 Jun 06 13:46 Re: Haditha
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
Sad that it is so, when good men set out to kill each other to further political or religious aims, and women and children live in fear of death or mutilation. I wonder how any of these firebrands that encourage fighting would wet their pants if they had to stand, bat in hand, and face the likes of Harold Larwood and Bill Voce……
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30924 - 06 Jun 06 14:17 Re: Haditha
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Hey MT, you forgott to add text!!!

Hoe are you darling?

we never talk frown

Are we falling out of love? frown

I miss you!

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#30925 - 06 Jun 06 16:11 Re: Haditha
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Ah PB manisku, sayangku (sorry in Indo language)

"Hoe are you darling?"
I'm fine honey, how are you too, hopefully fine too, if you need to spoil yourself tonight just come to me .....

"we never talk"
frown ...but I want not only talk PB... wink

"Are we falling out of love?"
Hey who left me in the dark side confused

I miss you!
I miss you too, let's doing race, break the rules and beat the record wink
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30926 - 06 Jun 06 16:27 Re: Haditha
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Ultimately after Iraq’s civilian population, those troops will pay the price for this war, they’re (American troops) not only expected to follow unlawful orders, they are also expected to bear life-long burdens of shame, guilt and legal culpability for the arrogance of their own commanders, who dispense life and death from an office computer. The real moral tragedy is that while some number of soldiers may face prosecution, the real culprits won’t be punished. There are just too many of them.

They include not only the Bush administration’s hardliners who conjured up this war but also the Democratic hawks that enabled them and the media that spun their glorious war narrative and convinced so many ordinary citizens to jump up on board, it’s only “sensible thinking” of some people who only realized this war was a mistake when its execution proved disastrous.
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30927 - 06 Jun 06 21:01 Re: Haditha
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by Macan Tutul:
"Are we falling out of love?"
Hey who left me in the dark side confused

I have been to the dark side darling, and it scared me. You have no idea of the evil men possess there....

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#30928 - 06 Jun 06 21:06 Re: Haditha
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Ultimately after Iraq’s civilian population, those troops will pay the price for this war, they’re (American troops) not only expected to follow unlawful orders,

WHAT UNLAWFUL OTDERS? NOW YOU BELIEVE THE LEFT WING CRAP?


they are also expected to bear life-long burdens of shame, guilt and legal culpability for the arrogance of their own commanders, who dispense life and death from an office computer.

THIS IS WAR HONEY. IDONT CARE HOW THE ORDERS ARE ISSUED, THE TERMINATION IS THE SAME.


The real moral tragedy is that while some number of soldiers may face prosecution, the real culprits won’t be punished. There are just too many of them.

THE REAL CULPRITS ARE STUPID LAWLESS IRAQIS, WHO KILL WITH IMPUNITY.

They include not only the Bush administration’s hardliners who conjured up this war but also the Democratic hawks that enabled them and the media that spun their glorious war narrative and convinced so many ordinary citizens to jump up on board, it’s only “sensible thinking” of some people who only realized this war was a mistake when its execution proved disastrous.

SINCE WHAT HAD BEEN BRINGING DEMOCRACY TO THE PEOPLE BEEN STUPID….?

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#30929 - 06 Jun 06 21:37 Re: Haditha
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
SINCE WHAT HAD BEEN BRINGING DEMOCRACY TO THE PEOPLE BEEN STUPID….?
Of course it's stupid, dumb as anything, it's difficult to 'bring' democracy to any place but jesus, to Iraq, you gotta be kidding. It might be kind of noble, and Americans are a peculiar mix of crusading zealotry and hard self-interestedness, but nobility and crusading is no way to run a foreign policy, above all when your'e the big dog in the pound and your decisions affect just about everyone.
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#30930 - 06 Jun 06 22:06 Re: Haditha
branmac Offline
Member+

Registered: 21 May 06
Posts: 84
Loc: Australia
Who ever said Americans were the "big dog in the pound". When did they win a war apart from dropping a bomb that shook the hell out of the world and killed so many civillians. Right now even the Americans cannot decide who won their own civil war. There is no way they will ever create peace in Iraq. Only the people in Iraq will create peace.. maybe. It was a classic today when Sudarsono told Rumsfeld "It's best that you leave the main responsibility of anti-terrorist measures to the local government in question and not to be overly insistent about immediate results arriving from your perception of terrorists," He also said America was "overbearing". Great to see that Indonesia has balls
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