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#30730 - 25 May 06 18:08 CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
From CNN http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/05/25/timor.troops/index.html

Australia rushes troops to Timor
Reports of more gunfire as people flee capital


Thursday, May 25, 2006 Posted: 0906 GMT (1706 HKT)

SYDNEY, Australia (CNN) -- Australian troops have arrived in the capital of East Timor, after weeks of clashes between security forces and former soldiers in this troubled nation have left people on edge.

The 130 commandos arrived in Dili on Thursday on Blackhawk helicopters and Hercules aircraft to secure the airport ahead of the arrival of 1,300 Australian soldiers.

The commandos were the first international forces to enter East Timor after 600 disgruntled soldiers began clashing with security forces. Dozens of foreigners have fled since the unrest began.

On Thursday, fierce gun battles raged in the capital, according to news agencies, while homes and businesses were torched.

The Australian frigate HMAS Adelaide was now in Dili harbor ready to assist, Prime Minister John Howard said.

New Zealand has committed 30 soldiers, and Portugal will send a mobile police force of about 120, though this deployment is expected to take several weeks. Malaysia too said troops were on the way.

Announcing the deployment, Australian Prime Minister John Howard said they would be on a "dangerous mission" in a dangerous situation.

At least six people have died in recent weeks, according to news agencies.

An East Timor army captain became the latest victim, when he was killed in the capital Dili Thursday in a fresh exchange of gunfire between the two groups.

Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer told CNN Thursday that troops would be going into a "difficult and dangerous" environment, but it was right for Australia to respond to East Timor's request.

East Timor sought help from Australia, New Zealand, Portugal and Malaysia on Wednesday, when it became clear the security situation was worsening.

Downer said that in a practical sense, only Australia had the capability to get substantial numbers of troops into East Timor quickly.

The United Nations said it was setting up a refugee camp near its East Timor headquarters in Dili to accommodate people fleeing from the fighting.

Embassies, including those of Australia and the United States, are evacuating non-essential personnel.
Heavily armed

Journalist David O'Shea, who is in East Timor, told CNN Thursday it was clear that the disgruntled soldiers who had taken to the hills in recent weeks were heavily armed.

He said international troops would face a different situation to 1999, when an Australian-led force was welcomed by East Timorese suffering at the hands of rampaging pro-Indonesia militia groups, following the August 1999 vote for independence from Indonesia.

"This time the battle lines are unclear," O'Shea said, with the allegiance of the police and military tending to fracture along ethnic lines.

The situation in East Timor has been deteriorating since 595 of the army's total strength of 1,400 soldiers were dismissed in March. They had gone on strike over complaints of discrimination and poor working conditions.

They maintain that because they are of the Loromonu clan from the west of the country, they are denied promotion by officers drawn from the eastern clan, Lorosae, which is centered on the towns of Baucau and Lospalos. The western half of the island of Timor remains part of Indonesia.

A government commission was established this month to investigate the soldiers' allegations.

But East Timor's President Xanana Gusmao has also vowed that security forces will hunt down those responsible for the fighting, including Major Alfredo Alves Reinado, the Australian-trained officer who led the military police until his decision on May 4 to decamp to the hills outside Dili in support of the sacked soldiers.

Downer told CNN that the role of the international troops would be to stabilize the situation and provide an environment in which the East Timor government could get on with talking to the disgruntled soldiers.
People fleeing

O'Shea told CNN that he hoped the arrival of troops would "restore sense" in East Timor, which is the world's newest nation and one of the poorest.

Much of its economy is based on agriculture, while potential income from services such as tourism has been hit by the poor security situation.

The country has huge offshore reserves of oil and gas, including a large area shared with Australia, but has only just begun to exploit them. Development has been delayed by a dispute over the siting of a gas processing plant.

The former Portuguese colony of East Timor was invaded and annexed by Indonesia in 1975. Over the ensuing 24 years of Indonesian occupation, as many as 200,000 people may have died, according to human rights groups. During that time, Gusmao led a guerrilla campaign by his Fretilin force against the Indonesian army.

After the 1999 independence vote, a U.N. administration oversaw the country's transition to full independence in 2002.

The U.N. mission of 130 administrators, police and military advisers was due to finish in East Timor on May 20, but was extended for a month after the April riots.
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#30731 - 25 May 06 18:10 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
so Major Sausage, are there plans to deploy your good self in E. Timor this time around?

the situation looks a good deal more dangerous than 1999. what's more, many of the rebel soldiers have had the benefit of some australian military training ... that will certainly come back to bite australia on the bum!
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#30732 - 25 May 06 18:30 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Kompas is describing Dili at this moment as a "killing field". obviously, the ultra-nationalists in that newspaper are taking liberties with such a comparison, no doubt as a warning to other indonesian regions that are thinking about breaking away from the unitary republic.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30733 - 25 May 06 21:05 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
I hate having a town named after me!
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Menace to Sobriety


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#30734 - 25 May 06 21:13 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by Dilligaf:
I hate having a town named after me!
that did occur to me when i was writng my messages ...

i'm awaiting comment from the Major regarding the latest situation, but it seems he's AWOL. maybe he's been deployed ... in some capacity or another.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30735 - 26 May 06 06:56 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
The word is not good. You are exactly right, instead of being a rabble armed with sticks and stones and the odd knife, we now face a trained army with excellent weapons that we have supplied. When I did my Steyr conversion course (from the old SLR rifle) I thought to myself – “shit this is a good bit of kit, I hope we never go up against anyone armed with the same weapon…..”

We may now do that. Hopefully the ex students will remember the Australians fondly, and will decline to engage.

I cannot comment upon operational matters, but I can say I took a lot of things out of my garage late lat night, checked them over and put them by the front door.

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#30736 - 26 May 06 07:21 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
The Australian Defence Force is going through a bit of bad press just lately. A lot of poor management decisions, bad purchase etc.

But there is a current misconception in the population that although the government and civilian administration are crap, are troops are invincible. Sons of the ANZACS they cheer.

Sadly we may well soon discover that although our troops are very good, they are not invincible. No army ever is. The Australian army is better than the worst parts of TNI and USA Army, and as good as the best parts. But not better. If they go up against a hardened, determined enemy, then they will take casualties.

Tragically, we will soon discover that even good soldiers get killed in combat.

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#30737 - 26 May 06 14:18 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Ena Offline
Member*

Registered: 26 Nov 05
Posts: 765
Loc: Sydney
well I will be watching trial by fire on the abc
( david wenham -YUM)
my husband refuses to watch it.he reckons timor timur should still be indonesian.he will be at an arisan instead-hehe obral obral with all the ibu ibu LOL.
apparantly we have also denied asylum to those papuans. Dear husband says because of the us visit by johnny to georgie and how many mines are us/aus interests there.
Timor looks so beautiful-did anyone ever read that book by Timothy Mo about all of that Timor/Indo stuff-1991 published. ( thinly disguised etc)
" The Redundancy of Courage"
He's a really good writer by the way-I really recommend a book by him called Sour Sweet-and his others too.
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#30738 - 26 May 06 14:23 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Quote:
Originally posted by Ena:
well I will be watching trial by fire on the abc
( david wenham -YUM)
my husband refuses to watch it.he reckons timor timur should still be indonesian.he will be at an arisan instead-hehe obral obral with all the ibu ibu LOL.
apparantly we have also denied asylum to those papuans. Dear husband says because of the us visit by johnny to georgie and how many mines are us/aus interests there.
Timor looks so beautiful-did anyone ever read that book by Timothy Mo about all of that Timor/Indo stuff-1991 published. ( thinly disguised etc)
" The Redundancy of Courage"
He's a really good writer by the way-I really recommend a book by him called Sour Sweet-and his others too.
I think I have read "Sour Sweet", its about the chinese husband and wife setting up a chinese takeway, set around the 60's?? read it a quite few years ago. Very good story...it was my first taste of asia in general.
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#30739 - 26 May 06 14:32 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Ena Offline
Member*

Registered: 26 Nov 05
Posts: 765
Loc: Sydney
yup thats the one-I love that book. Very funny/sad book I thought .
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#30740 - 28 May 06 16:42 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Insanity prevails in Timor again, and this time the world cannot blame the TNI for inspiring the insurgents.

One quarter of the population is homeless, 50,000 Dili residents live in makeshift camps, looting is endemic, cars burn in the streets, people are being hacked to death on the streets.

And once again Australian soldiers are out there trying to keep some peace.

This time Indonesia CANNOT be blamed. The truth is the Timor has slipped back to tribal warfare and mob rule. Once again my taxes are being used to prop up this lunatic shithole, once again I am in grave danger of being sent somewhere unpleasant.

Indonesians can now stick a finger in the air to the world and say “Told you so”

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#30741 - 28 May 06 18:39 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
D'ruby Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 13 Feb 06
Posts: 2177
Loc: My
Just saw it in CNN, it's dangerous situation, hope you won't go there PB.
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#30742 - 28 May 06 19:44 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Me too frown

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#30743 - 29 May 06 17:00 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
hanabi Offline
Member+++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 436
Loc: Here and there...
I don't really understand the issue of East Timor, but I remember when my brother said that East Timor would have conflicts and civil war soon after separating from Indonesia since the East Timorese in general still live in tribes and have strong primordial ties frown
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#30744 - 31 May 06 04:59 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Emergency rule for E Timor leader

East Timor's President Xanana Gusmao is taking control of the country's national security and defence in a bid to defuse mounting unrest.
Emergency powers will give Mr Gusmao control of the army and police, split by internal disputes and gang violence.

Mr Gusmao, a highly respected former guerrilla leader, also assumed sole charge of coordination with the Australian-led peacekeeping force.

His move comes after fresh violence and looting hit the capital, Dili.

Mr Gusmao said the decision to impose emergency rule, which would last 30 days, had been taken in "close collaboration" with Prime Minister Mari Alkatiri.

Mr Alkatiri has been blamed by other members of the government for failing to stop the violence, which was triggered by the government's sacking of hundreds of troops after they went on strike.

Mr Gusmao said the move is to "prevent violence and avoid further fatalities", as well as for the "rapid reestablishment of public order".

The intervention of the president, who normally plays a largely symbolic role, will be widely welcomed, the BBC's Jonathan Head says.

But he alone cannot fix the collapse of East Timor's system of government.

Mr Alkatiri is deeply unpopular but refuses to resign and there are few obvious successors to him, our correspondent says.

TENSIONS MOUNT

Feb: More than 400 troops strike over pay and conditions
March: Government sacks nearly 600 of 1,400-man army
April: Rioting by sacked troops leaves five people dead
May: Violence intensifies; government appeals for foreign assistance

There are reports that the defence and interior ministers have been sacked, but it is not clear yet whether they have accepted this.

Mr Gusmao's move follows days of mounting tension and violence.

At least 20 people are reported to have been killed and tens of thousands have fled their homes.

More violence on Tuesday left several shops - once part of a vibrant commercial district - reduced to burnt out shells. Many people, including children, were simply helping themselves to supplies.

In some houses anything of value has been stripped away or destroyed. Many residents have taken shelter at makeshift camps where basic necessities are running out.

Thousands of desperate people descended on warehouses where rice was being handed out, and waited for hours in the baking sun.

'Gutless thugs'

The immediate cause of the violence was the sacking of 600 striking soldiers in March. The soldiers, who were mainly from the west of the country, complained of discrimination against them by leaders from the east.


The peacekeepers say they are reining in the gangs in Dili

But there are also signs that some of the violence is politically motivated.

Attorney-General Longuinhos Monteiro told the BBC his offices had been looted on several occasions and up to 15% of the criminal archive stolen.

Some of the stolen files relate to Indonesia's bloody withdrawal from East Timor following a 1999 referendum.

Pro-Indonesian militias were accused of orchestrating the violence, which left more than 1,000 people dead.

Australian Brigadier Michael Slater says his 1,300 peacekeeping troops are gaining an upper hand against the gangs of "gutless thugs" rampaging in Dili.

"We've been taking the weapons off them and they are losing their freedom of action because we have so many soldiers out there providing the security among the population," he told the Australian media.

"It's not fixed, but we're getting there," he added.

He went on to say that although there were "some very large groups of internally displaced people", but "there is no humanitarian crisis here".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5029794.stm
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30745 - 01 Jun 06 04:54 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
E Timor PM refuses to step down

East Timor's PM Mari Alkatiri has told the BBC he will not resign, despite being blamed for not ending the unrest which has paralysed the capital Dili.
Mr Alkatiri also disputed whether President Xanana Gusmao, who announced emergency rule on Tuesday, was now in sole charge of the country's security.

Dili was calmer on Wednesday, though some arson and fighting continued.

Fifteen major aid donors to East Timor, including foreign governments, urged rival groups to stop their feuding.

Mr Alkatiri has been blamed by other members of the government for failing to stop the violence, which was triggered by his decision to sack of hundreds of troops after they went on strike.

TENSIONS MOUNT

Feb: More than 400 troops strike over pay and conditions
March: Government sacks nearly 600 of 1,400-man army
April: Rioting by sacked troops leaves five people dead
May: Violence intensifies, with battles between gangs from east and west of the country
24 May: Government asks foreign troops to take control


But the prime minister said any political change would have to wait for parliamentary elections in 2007.

"Wait until the election and people will vote," he told the BBC. "If you are talking on the name of the people, bring the people to vote"

Political dispute

On Tuesday, Mr Gusmao said the decision to impose emergency rule - which would last 30 days - had been taken in "close collaboration" with Mr Alkatiri.

Emergency powers will give Mr Gusmao control of the army and police, split by internal disputes and gang violence.

But the prime minister disputed whether Mr Gusmao was now in control of the security forces.

"You are wrong, completely wrong, he [Mr Gusmao] is not taking control," he told Australian Broadcasting Corporation radio.

"The defence and security is still part of the government, and I am the head of the government," he said, blaming the confusion on a misinterpretation of Gusmao's statement from Portuguese into English.

The intervention of the president, who normally plays a largely symbolic role, will be widely welcomed, says the BBC's Jonathan Head, who is in the capital Dili.

But he alone cannot fix the loss of confidence in East Timor's government.

At least 20 people are reported to have been killed and tens of thousands have fled their homes since the violence began.

On Wednesday, as news of Mr Gusmao's announcement spread, most of Dili was reported to be much calmer than in recent days. But there were some reports of gunfire and of gangs torching buildings, as well as street fights between rivals.

The immediate cause of the unrest was the sacking of 600 striking soldiers in March. The soldiers, who were mainly from the west of the country, complained of discrimination against them by leaders from the east.


A number of houses in Dili have been ransacked and set on fire

But there are also signs that some of the violence is politically motivated.

Attorney-General Longuinhos Monteiro told the BBC on Tuesday that his offices had been looted on several occasions and up to 15% of the criminal archive stolen.

Some of the stolen files relate to Indonesia's bloody withdrawal from East Timor following a 1999 referendum.

Pro-Indonesian militias were accused of orchestrating the violence, which left more than 1,000 people dead.

The head of the Australian military, Angus Houston, says he believes his country's peacekeepers will be in East Timor for six months.

Air Chief Marshal Houston told a Senate committee that he hoped to scale down the operation as order returned.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5032696.stm
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Peter Kay

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#30746 - 02 Jun 06 04:13 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
E Timor president plea for unity

East Timor President Xanana Gusmao has pleaded with the country's police and army to work together following widespread unrest in the country.
The dismissal in March of 600 army troops sparked off violence after they launched a rebellion.

Clashes between the rebel troops and police escalated last week, causing thousands to flee the capital, Dili.

On Thursday, the rebel troop leader called for the resignation of the PM whom the rebels blame for the sackings.

President Gusmao assumed direct control on Tuesday of the army and police, which are also split by internal disputes.

Ten police officers, whom the military suspected of aiding the rebels, were shot dead by troops last week.

On Thursday, Interior Minister Rogerio Lobato, who had been asked by the government to step down, formally announced his resignation, the Associated Press news agency reported.

"I bear moral and political responsibility for this incident," he said of the killings.

Unity

Visiting police officers at their headquarters, President Gusmao said the two forces needed to work together and with international peacekeepers to end the violence.

"I am proud of you because in difficult times like these you are still ready to wear your uniforms to serve this lovely nation," he told them.

"Forgive each other, forget the past, let us build the nation from ashes once again," he said.

The rebel leader, Major Alfredo Reinado, has criticised Mr Gusmao, saying he had made a mistake by not sacking the Prime Minister, Mari Alkatiri.

He said the unrest would not stop until the prime minister stepped down.

"Alkatiri has to resign and go to court for all the crimes he ordered," Mr Reinado told AP.

Mr Alkatiri has also been blamed for the growing rivalry between people from the west and east of the country.

The soldiers, whose dismissal was ordered by Mr Alkatiri, were mainly from the west of the country, and had complained of discrimination against them by leaders from the east.

Although Dili was relatively calm on Wednesday, sporadic violence on Thursday led to the death of at least one person.

At least 20 people are reported to have been killed and tens of thousands have fled their homes since the violence began.

Some 2,000 foreign peacekeepers are in the country attempting to restore order.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5036070.stm
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30747 - 02 Jun 06 12:39 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Interesting piece in today’s Sydney Morning Herald about East Timor. It seem a lot of people have just woken up to the fact the ET getting independence may not have been such a good idea. They are now saying that some form of semi autonomy would have been a better solution., Duuuuuuh!!!!!!

I cause a lot of consternation on a XXXXXXX course a few years ago, when I argued that Australia’s push to grant ET independence was driven by two factors (Oil Assets and the Catholic church) and that it would lead to major problems for Australia in the future. I was shouted down by senior Intelligence Officers, most of whom had never been to Indonesia before they got off a plane at Dili, and suddenly thought they were the experts.

Time to shout I told you so…… Sorry XXXXXX, you were wrong about the Oil, you were wrong about the church, and you were wrong about the future!!!!!

Within 2 years of independence Australia was dictating terms over the Timor Sea oil reserves, and being far more heavy handed than it would have been had Indonesia been in charge. The East Timorese lost, and Australia grabbed a large slice of oil. True the world objected, and Australia handed back a large slice, but it still did far better than it would have done if Jakarta had been on the other side of the table, and it was a good try anyway.

The Catholic Church, having put pressure on the Australian government to help release its members from Muslim servitude, now finds itself deep in a crisis. In any case the Catholic Church was introduced by Portuguese colonialists, and in reality has no place in the distinctly Asian island.

Have the lives of the average Timorese improved since 1999? Nope. Is the country better off? Nope. It is steadily rattling towards tribal based civil war. Unemployment is now the highest in the world.

But hey, when you are fighting for Oil Reserves and for religious domination who gives a fuck about the people?

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#30748 - 02 Jun 06 13:02 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
Interesting piece in today’s Sydney Morning Herald about East Timor. It seem a lot of people have just woken up to the fact the ET getting independence may not have been such a good idea. They are now saying that some form of semi autonomy would have been a better solution., Duuuuuuh!!!!!!
well, duuuuh too ... i was treated like a pariah in the ALP in the early '90s for daring to suggest that ET would be better off as an auotomous region, so as not to become a burden on australia. the so-called left-wing of the party particularly were blindly rabid in their support of an independent state, completely forgetting that australia too has legitimate national interests, and those interests include stable borders without refugee problems.

so, for what it's worth:

<font size=4>I TOLD YOU SO!</font>
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#30749 - 02 Jun 06 14:07 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
This would not have been during the Catholic dominated ALP years would it? When Paul Keeting was kissing the Popes arse and telling him he would fix the little problem of those poor Catholics in East Timor.

I have argued many many many times that the Catholic Church is as fundamentalist, as crazy and as power hungry (and as dangerous) as Islam.

Religion and politics DO NOT MIX. Yet in the late 80s to mid 90s the Catholic Church had a powerful ear in the ALP. Now the ALP has been consigned to the garbage bin the Catholic Church courts the Liberals, with maniacs like Tony Abbot pushing the Popes agenda on abortion etc.

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#30750 - 02 Jun 06 14:12 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
I agree PB, POLITIC AND RELIGION DO NOT MIX!!

Politic is a performance, accomplishment and just some part from the “blueprint”, politic is not a religion or morality teaching whose see the world or living as a object which need to be done entirely and totalities. Those kind of politic just happen in a fascist nation, because if politic being doing with totalities, impossible for opposition, compromise and negotiation as a common activity in politic ways also being taboo, there’s only two choices in totalities politics and both of them against with democracy principals or destroy their politic enemies until the smallest one or being destroyed.

religion mentioned as cultural sign, as culture system, religion become establishment and mobilization power which sometimes creating conflict, in here when religion (as culture) be function in a society in real, will born the paradox reality on one side religion could be an integration of instrument but the other side could be disintegration factor.
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#30751 - 02 Jun 06 14:14 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I have a theory that the current oil situation had been predicted about 10 years ago. Certainly it was clear by 1990 that China was on the verge of becoming a manufacturing superpower, and the connection between that and a Chinese driven demand for oil was not hard to work out.

This makes a lot of decisions over that last 10 years (oil pipelines out of Russia into Europe, the US Push to drill for oil in Alaska, Iraq, East Timor, all seem like a plan.

Maybe Mad Max 2 was not so far off.

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#30752 - 02 Jun 06 14:18 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
catholics only really dominated the ALP during the 1950s. they eventually split off to form the "democratic labour party", which was "neither democratic, labour nor a party". it quickly developed into a hyper right-wing conservative pressure group aligned with the "right to life" and other shady groups.

keating never supported ET independence; to the contrary, he was a strong supporter of an autonomy plan similar to that implemented in new caledonia, in which after 10 years of full autonomy a referendum would be held to determine whether they would declare independence.

howard, dickhead that he is, also supported this position. As did almost all of DFAT.

unfortuately, the australian public are idiots when it comes to foreign relations and their own national interests and survival.
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#30753 - 02 Jun 06 14:21 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
The problem is that the fundamentalists (religious and socio economic) know that without government support they would never achieve domination.

Communism, which is a monetary concept and not a governmental ideal, would never succeed on a voluntary basis. “Sorry KuKu, you have too much money, so you should give some to Santi” etc. But with the enforcement of government legislation your money is forcibly taken off you and redistributed.

The same logic exists for religion. A handful may go to mass, and obey the Koran, but if you can enshrine the religion in law, you can fully enforce its teachings.

I was in Ireland in the 70s. In the south possession of a condom was against the law. So was divorce. So was homosexuality. Abortion. The Pill was illegal. All laws demanded by the Catholic Church, and enshrined into legislation by a stupid pliable government.

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#30754 - 02 Jun 06 14:26 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by KuKuKaChu:
catholics only really dominated the ALP during the 1950s. they eventually split off to form the "democratic labour party", which was "neither democratic, labour nor a party". it quickly developed into a hyper right-wing conservative pressure group aligned with the "right to life" and other shady groups.

keating never supported ET independence; to the contrary, he was a strong supporter of an autonomy plan similar to that implemented in new caledonia, in which after 10 years of full autonomy a referendum would be held to determine whether they would declare independence.

howard, dickhead that he is, also supported this position. As did almost all of DFAT.

unfortuately, the australian public are idiots when it comes to foreign relations and their own national interests and survival.
This isn’t quite how I heard the discussion. Keating was saying one thing to Indonesia and another to East Timor. The subject of ET independence was a constant topic in his cabinet, and promises and plans had been made for many years.

As for that idiot clock collector Keating, he was so far up the Popes clacker in his private audience who knows what was promised. Certainly as soon as the world bank had power over Indo, Timor became independent.

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