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#30646 - 16 May 06 12:15 You have GOT to check this site out.....
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
http://www.islamonline.com

Just discovered it while mucking around (due to boredom).

I was really quite suprised at some of the stuff that is posted here.

So far I have managed to get my wife to break this rule....
http://www.islamonline.com/cgi-bin/news_service/fatwah_story.asp?service_id=376.

This link suprised the hell out of me, mainly because what it states Muslims have to do in a western country. I have taught 11 year old Muslims in Indonesia that have broken this particular law time and time again.

http://www.islamonline.com/cgi-bin/news_service/fatwah_story.asp?service_id=425

Anyway, have a look around guys, PB, it wouldn't be right if you DIDNT have anything to say about this!
The magpie
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"People say funny things......."

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#30647 - 16 May 06 12:38 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Futher more, I have just learned that Muslims are not allowed Life insurance, or any kind of insurance for the body.

Goodness me, I never realised religion was so complicated....hmmmm me thinks complicated so that others can advise those of the weak. S'funny because brain washing is not allowed in Islam, but it must happen, when those needing advice turn to their religious elders.

It's funny because at the bottom of each post they state "Allah Almighty knows best", but I have not managed to find anything HE posted!
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"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30648 - 16 May 06 13:06 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I have visited this site may times before. I hold two viewpoints. Firstly, it is run by a bunch of men and give THEIR interpretation of the teachings of the Koran. It is therefore more of a spout for their claptrap than any reasoned arguments.

Secondly, it demonstrates that most Muslims and not “good Muslims” – just as most Christians are not “good Christians.

The big danger is that these idiots don’t see the problem of mixing state and law. Thus they get their claptrap enshrined in law, and it is then enforced upon all. Then we have girls being stoned to death for being raped. Eyes gouged out, tongues cut off, etc.

Its all BOLLOCKS!

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#30649 - 16 May 06 17:18 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
hanabi Offline
Member+++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 436
Loc: Here and there...
Btw, why do you guys always presume that Islam is a single nature to oppose that religion is personal beliefs? If you care to check this out, http://islamlib.com/, perhaps you can put it in a more balance perspective. If you think that you're more educated and wiser, rather than judging, complaining and pushing all of your negativity around, why don't you try to find a better solution to deal with intolerance and violence?
_________________________
Crossing the bridge of reason... "Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absentminded. Someone sober will worry about things going badly. Let the lover be."

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#30650 - 16 May 06 17:27 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by hanabi:
Btw, why do you guys always presume that Islam is a single nature to oppose that religion is personal beliefs? If you care to check this out, http://islamlib.com/, perhaps you can put it in a more balance perspective. If you think that you're more educated and wiser, rather than judging, complaining and pushing all of your negativity around, why don't you try to find a better solution to deal with intolerance and violence?
this is a common problem, when people say "islam is this" or "islam says that" ... you always have to ask, "whose islam?" or "which islam?". just like christianity, islam is not a homogenous singular entity, but a massive heaving mess of contradictions and contrasts and differences.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30651 - 16 May 06 17:49 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
hanabi Offline
Member+++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 436
Loc: Here and there...
Aaahhh... now you sounded more like a mature guy KuKu! Or should I say an old one... laugh Kidding! Maturity doesn't go with age. Right, dad?
_________________________
Crossing the bridge of reason... "Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absentminded. Someone sober will worry about things going badly. Let the lover be."

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#30652 - 16 May 06 17:56 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by hanabi:
Aaahhh... now you sounded more like a mature guy KuKu! Or should I say an old one... laugh Kidding! Maturity doesn't go with age. Right, dad?
yep, i'm very mature for my 29 years. why don't you come over to my place tonight; we can fool around and make molotov cocktails and car bombs and suicide bombers' vests.

islam, my islam! right or wrong, my islam!
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30653 - 16 May 06 17:57 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Hanafi I agree with you, maturity is not always goes with age, and about the website you showed, some of them I copy and paste and put in here, I just want to make a DISCUSSION to show and open what about Islam and what people thinking about it, does Western or the other, but some was my own opinion too.
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30654 - 16 May 06 18:07 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
One of my wives' family in Yogyakarta is a simple case study: father is sort of muslim, but is far more into a "aliran" called sumarah, which is a mystical based meditation practice. never solats. mother is a kampung muslim who wears a kerudung, and who solats fairly regularly. eldest child goes through all the motions, but doesn't wear jilbab and doesn't solat regularly. 2nd child (my wife) is extremely "taat": wears jilbab, solats without fail 5 times a day. 3rd child is like 2nd, but less rigid. 4th child isn't much into it, but goes through the motions to keep the family happy; doesn't wear jilbab and only solats on "special" occaisions.

so, who among them is a muslim? and can one among them be said to be "more" muslim than another?
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30655 - 16 May 06 18:26 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
I think mark of Moslem or not is just like a "clothes" which they or we wearing everyday, and the trully Moslem is in their heart and maybe you should check this out I found this from one site :


1. Moderate Muslim is not the one who's intentionally not observing the principle-5-pillars of Islam such as 5-times prayer every day, paying alms, doing haj once in life-time, fasting one-month long during ramadan, etc

2. Moderate Muslim is not the one who's intentionally doing things which is in Islam considered as major sins such as adultery (fornication), drinking alcoholic beverage, gambling, killing, theft/robbery, etc.
So the different between moderate and fundamentalist (militant, extremist) Muslim are only this: while the former considers Islam as a spiritual/moral guidance; the latter regards it as as both (a) spiritual/moral guidance and (b) political movements. The point (b) is getting more emphasis. That's why, the extremist Muslim is sometimes not necessarily religious in nature. Hence, violence is justified if necessary just like any other political movement (left, right, center) of any culture and religious preference.


Moderate Muslim consist of:
(1)Traditional Muslim in the literal and terminology sense of the term. For example, those muslims in rural area of indonesia who mostly belong to NU (nahdlatul ulama) socio-religious movement can be put into this category. They are 'traditional' in terms of education, way of life, and their attachment to the traditional-cum-religious values and customs. They dont know and dont care about politics, global affairs, relation between Islam and the west, etc. But they will be furious if, for example, somebody/country destroy Mecca in Saudi Arabia or degrade Prophet Muhammad personality because it's strongly to do with their daily religious life and activities. These kind of Muslims represent the majority of Muslim Indonesian.

(2) Conversative Muslims. They are just like traditional Muslim. Only in terms of education they are more advanced and they belong to urban population and mostly prefer to be under Muhammadiyah socio-religious movement. The second largest religious organisation after NU.

This conservative Muslims have a full awareness of global relation between Islam and the West; about occupation in iraq; occupation of Israel upon palestinian land; etc. Yet, this group dont want to indulge or involve in violence whatsoever. History of post-independence Indonesia never witness any violence carried out by those two groups in the name of religion or others against non-Muslims or their fellow Muslims. NU and Muhammadiyah represent two group within the moderate Muslims community you can see and meet in the crowd in your day-to-day life whenever you visit Indonesia. We call them SANTRI Apart from these two, there are one group called "Abangan" which means a non-practicing muslim. A muslim whose Islamic identity only in his/her ID card or may be in his/her conviction and belief in God and Prophet Muhammad but no more than that. You can find them in the bar, discotheque, singing naked in a hotel or become a nude model in some half- or full-porn magazines or a nude-porn-film-star and anything like that.

Having said that, none of the moderate Muslims (traditional or conservative) ever despise this group (Abangan) and disregard it as non-muslim. The Abangan still a Muslim. They are part of Muslim Indonesia which are unique and homogeneous.
It's a bit difficult to identify them as they are ever changing. An abangan now, could be a SANTRI tomorrow. It's important to note though that abangan is not an official name like NU or Muhammadiyah. Now, many of this group identify themselves proudly as Liberal Muslim
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30656 - 16 May 06 18:28 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Jokie Jokie Girl Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 07 Nov 05
Posts: 2552
Loc: Central Jakarta
aduh, my booby, panjang sekali postsnya wink
where did you get it? wink
_________________________
"I am the Island girl, born with the humble life, eat on the floor with the right hand"

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#30657 - 16 May 06 23:00 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally posted by Macan Tutul:
Having said that, none of the moderate Muslims (traditional or conservative) ever despise this group (Abangan) and disregard it as non-muslim. The Abangan still a Muslim. They are part of Muslim Indonesia which are unique and homogeneous.
It's a bit difficult to identify them as they are ever changing. An abangan now, could be a SANTRI tomorrow. It's important to note though that abangan is not an official name like NU or Muhammadiyah. Now, many of this group identify themselves proudly as Liberal Muslim
MT, I highly doubt that. Many of those abangan were massacred by NU and Muhammadiyah types in 1965/66. The excuse that they were 'communists' was i think just a cover for other things.

As for liberal islam, if it's anything like liberal Christianity then it's a dead end, no future. Faith is life, how can you be moderately alive? I suspect liberal muslims are just agnostics and atheists in the making, if they aren't already. It's just in Indonesia there is so much religiosity and that keeps those moderates and liberals in the general fold of Islam for longer than you might expect.
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http://www.indonesiamatters.com/

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#30658 - 17 May 06 05:12 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
I actually posted this because I have seen so many of these rules broken in Indonesia. I will give you an excellent example...Muslims are not permitted to smoke ciggarettes according to the Koran.
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30659 - 17 May 06 06:35 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Muslims are not permitted to smoke ciggarettes according to the Koran

Crap. Tobacco had not been "discovered" in the Eastern Hemisphere at that point!

Ironicaly Hashish was the blow of choice
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Menace to Sobriety


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#30660 - 17 May 06 07:05 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
"...make not your own hands contribute to your destruction..." (Surah al-Baqarah 2:195); "...nor kill yourselves..."

"...But spend not wastefully (your wealth) in the manner of a spendthrift. Verily spendthrifts are brothers of the devils...”

Not crap, as you can see above. These two rules certainly cover smoking, so back to the point, how many sinners in the worlds largest muslim country??? Quite a few I reckon.
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30661 - 17 May 06 07:06 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie:
I actually posted this because I have seen so many of these rules broken in Indonesia. I will give you an excellent example...Muslims are not permitted to smoke ciggarettes according to the Koran.
Scotsmen are not supposed to shag sheep.....

Baaaaaaa Baaaaaa

Coming honey.... smile

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#30662 - 17 May 06 07:19 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
also...
“And do not kill yourselves.” (An-Nisaa’: 29).

and Allah was supposed to have said.....

“Whomsoever drinks poison, thereby killing himself, will sip this poison forever in the Hell-Fire.”
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30663 - 17 May 06 07:50 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie:
also...
“And do not kill yourselves.” (An-Nisaa’: 29).

and Allah was supposed to have said.....

“Whomsoever drinks poison, thereby killing himself, will sip this poison forever in the Hell-Fire.”
So Allah knew about Bintang smile

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#30664 - 17 May 06 07:50 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie:
also...
“And do not kill yourselves.” (An-Nisaa’: 29).

and Allah was supposed to have said.....

“Whomsoever drinks poison, thereby killing himself, will sip this poison forever in the Hell-Fire.”
So Allah knew about Bintang smile

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#30665 - 17 May 06 07:58 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Quote:
Originally posted by Sausage Master Polar Bear:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie:
also...
“And do not kill yourselves.” (An-Nisaa’: 29).

and Allah was supposed to have said.....

“Whomsoever drinks poison, thereby killing himself, will sip this poison forever in the Hell-Fire.”
So Allah knew about Bintang smile
and Bali Hai! and the Carlsberg in Indonesia made me think I had caught an STD!!!

Reminds me of the time my mate had just finished work and was dying for a beer. So we ordered some deliveries from the nearest pub. In comes the beer, my mate grabs one, chucks half of it down his throat, then promptly spits it out, all over the floor, and starts to invesigate the liquid in side. It looked like shitty water, not the bintang he loves so much. I check every bottle of beer now, it looked disgusting. eek eek
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30666 - 17 May 06 08:50 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
I knew a guy who drank creosote (by mistake)at a party! Spat it out, projectile vomiting kind of fashion and left a dali-esque pattern on the wall.
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Menace to Sobriety


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#30667 - 17 May 06 17:14 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
hanabi Offline
Member+++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 436
Loc: Here and there...
Quote:
Originally posted by KuKuKaChu:
Quote:
Originally posted by hanabi:
Aaahhh... now you sounded more like a mature guy KuKu! Or should I say an old one... laugh Kidding! Maturity doesn't go with age. Right, dad?
yep, i'm very mature for my 29 years. why don't you come over to my place tonight; we can fool around and make molotov cocktails and car bombs and suicide bombers' vests.

islam, my islam! right or wrong, my islam!
Is that an invite to heaven?? laugh You'll be rewarded an angel and I'll be the angel... laugh

Btw KuKu, will you be our next prophet?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060516/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_fugitive

Polygamist Church Leader Remains in Hiding

By JENNIFER DOBNER, Associated Press Writer
Tue May 16, 1:52 PM ET

HILDALE, Utah - Prophet. Religious zealot. Dangerous extremist.

These are some of the words used to describe Warren Jeffs since the 50-year-old leader of a polygamous sect was put on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted list recently alongside such figures as Osama bin Laden.

Jeffs, head of a renegade Mormon splinter group called the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is accused of arranging marriages between underage girls and older men. He is charged with child sexual abuse in Arizona and being an accomplice to statutory rape in Utah.

Jeffs exercises extraordinary control over 10,000 or so followers who live mostly in the side-by-side towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz. Church dissidents say that during Jeffs' four-year rule, the number of underage marriages — some to girls as young as 13 — escalated into the hundreds. Families have been fractured in the process.

According to those expelled from the community, young men are sent away so as not to compete for brides; older men are cast out for alleged disobedience, and their wives and children are reassigned by Jeffs to new husbands and fathers.

"He's committed some horrific crimes against people, and I think he views himself as untouchable," said Carolyn Jessop, who in 2003 fled an 18-year marriage to a man 32 years her senior.

Insiders are fiercely loyal and will not answer questions from reporters. Jeffs himself has not been seen publicly in nearly two years. An interview request faxed by The Associated Press to a church-owned ranch in Eldorado, Texas, where some say he has moved church headquarters, elicited no response.

"I think he's a religious pervert, an extreme zealot or a religious extremist and a control freak," said Richard Holm, who said that he was thrown out in 2003 and that his three wives and 17 children were taken without warning. "His leadership has totally disrupted whatever was good about the church."

The sect adheres to the early doctrine of Mormon church founder Joseph Smith, who advocated plural marriage. The mainline Mormon church renounced polygamy in 1890 and denies any connection to such fundamentalist sects.

Polygamists have lived on the Utah-Arizona line since the early 20th century. A raid on the community — then known as Short Creek — by Arizona and federal authorities in 1953 was a debacle, and law enforcement authorities turned a blind eye to the group for decades.

Jeffs assumed leadership in 2002 after the death of his 98-year-old father, Rulon Jeffs, who had 65 children by several women. Jeffs took nearly all of his father's widows as his own wives. He is said to have at least 40 wives and nearly 60 children.

The sect has long practiced the custom of arranged marriages, but dissidents say young girls were rarely married off until Jeffs came to power.

Jeffs has prophesied that the world was about to come to an end and that the second coming of Jesus Christ was at hand, only to blame church members for their lack of faith when the events failed to occur, according to excommunicated members.

"He's convinced followers that he's the mouthpiece of God," said Colorado City historian and author Ben Bistline. "We heard a rumor that he's claiming to be Jesus Christ."

Jeffs has demanded church members add $1,000 monthly to the tithe, or 10 percent, that they already pay, leaving many families living in squalor, while his own family lived well in a block-long walled compound of mansions in Hildale.

He has also ordered followers to pull their kids out of the public schools and teach them at home; banned athletics, television and all books except Scripture; and enforced a long-standing dress code that requires women to wear long pioneer-style dresses and men to button their shirt collars.

The community's youngsters rarely attend school beyond the eighth grade. Instead they go to work, the boys usually in construction, the girls at home, or in family-run businesses, such as the local dairy or food co-op.

Since the 1940s, a church trust has held all the land and buildings in the two communities. However, last June, after Jeffs failed to answer lawsuits filed against him, the state of Utah took control of the trust.

Jeffs is said to wield great influence with city leaders, police and a local judge, most of whom are members of the church. Some say close associates, or "Warrenites," serve as his spies, reporting indiscretions by members of the community back to Jeffs.

He is known to travel with bodyguards in a convoy of sport utility vehicles with tinted windows, slipping in and out of church-owned properties in Colorado, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas and Utah. Authorities also believe he may be moving back and forth across the U.S. border to enclaves in Canada and Mexico. The FBI considers Jeffs armed and dangerous.

"I'd say he has a lot of financial resources available to him, he's got a wide network of support, and he generally surrounds himself with people who distrust the government," Salt Lake City FBI spokesman Patrick Kiernan said.
_________________________
Crossing the bridge of reason... "Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absentminded. Someone sober will worry about things going badly. Let the lover be."

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#30668 - 17 May 06 17:41 Re: You have GOT to check this site out.....
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by hanabi:
Quote:
Originally posted by KuKuKaChu:
Quote:
Originally posted by hanabi:
Aaahhh... now you sounded more like a mature guy KuKu! Or should I say an old one... laugh Kidding! Maturity doesn't go with age. Right, dad?
yep, i'm very mature for my 29 years. why don't you come over to my place tonight; we can fool around and make molotov cocktails and car bombs and suicide bombers' vests.

islam, my islam! right or wrong, my islam!
Is that an invite to heaven?? laugh You'll be rewarded an angel and I'll be the angel... laugh
frankly, i'd prefer the 72 virgins.

Quote:
Btw KuKu, will you be our next prophet?
sure babe. sounds like it could be a great career move. i've always thought i'd make a good prophet.
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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