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#30595 - 09 May 06 11:55 Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Which is more important liberty or justice?An interpretation of Islam that is not literalistic, that is substantial, that is contextual and that is in step with the ever-changing civilization of humanity.
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30596 - 09 May 06 12:07 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
You cant have liberty with out justice, that's just the way man is. Which is more important self achieved happiness, or happiness achieved through achieving goals of a group?
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"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30597 - 09 May 06 14:55 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I can go one question further…..

Which is more important: Self determination or life?

I am an age when I have seen Britain give away most of her colonial possessions.

Sometimes they were given away because they were ready for independence. Sometimes because they had to be returned (Hong Kong). Sometimes because Britain no longer wanted them.

But usually because the people wanted independence. What usually happened post independence is a catalogue of disasters that demonstrated that the people were better off under colonial rule...

India. Handed over as a sub continent. Within weeks it breaks out in civil war, and hundreds of thousands are murdered. Ends up as three countries (India, Pakistan and Bangladesh). All are piss poor, full of starving people. Many Indians, HAVING PROTESTED AT LIVING UNDER BRITISH RULE – MOVE TO BRITAIN!!!!!!!

Rhodesia. Richest land in Africa. Has unbounded minerals, and agricultural wealth. Handed to indigenous rule in 1982. Life expectancy has now dropped from 58 to under 30. Most of the population are starving. Food parcels are being sent. Corruption is rife. Democracy has ended; single tribal rule is in place. Many of the native people who wanted black rule are now in Britain – BACK UNDER WHITE RULE.

Pick any other colonial country and it is the same. A handful of years ago Britain made the Solomon Isle independent. Now Australians are trying to sort out the mess. Australian troops patrol the streets……

And – look at Indonesia. No one seems to be able to stop the rise if Islam, even though most Indonesians know and accept that it will destroy the country.

What the fuck is up with you guys. Get your act together……

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#30598 - 09 May 06 16:33 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Liberty and justice appear to clash with each other. In fact, the Muslim countries are unable to balance liberty and justice, if the haven’t indeed already lost both.
Ideally, both principles should be upheld by the state. Instead Muslims are often forced to opt for one or the other even though the consequences are not beneficial. It is common to hear Islamists criticizing capitalism as being opposed to liberty and proposing that socialism is an alternative system providing utopian justice. Islam (theoretically) is thought to provide a middle ground between capitalism and socialism guaranteeing both liberty and justice.

Again I said we need a social structure that clearly distinguishes between political power and religious power. Religion is a private matter, while the ordering of public life is entirely the product of the community reaching agreement through democratic deliberation. Certainly it is to be hoped that the universal values of religion will contribute to the formation of public values, but the particular doctrines and worship practices of each religion are an internal matter for that religion.
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30599 - 09 May 06 20:55 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
Liberty and justice are subjective words. An utopian paradise which will not ever happen or materialise in any world where human exists.

Democracy is not either liberty or justice. It is simply following who got elected. Better still, following those who bankrolled the candidates and those who make the most noise post election. Capitalism is a monopoly and socialism is a communism, unless of course the Chinese brand of communist capitalism. Islam is none of the above, it is simply a religion, a theologican theories.

The state, the government, the religion(s) should all be mutually exclusive and independent of each other. But we all know that is not the case, plenty of examples, most if not all muslim countries, the US, Australia, India, now Canada.

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#30600 - 10 May 06 20:25 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
chicha_lex Offline
Member+

Registered: 07 Feb 06
Posts: 124
Loc: Saudi Arabia
So, let us all go back under British rule, or Dutch...

I was thinking about what went wrong all this while. What will happen if Tanah Melayu (Malaysia) was never invaded by the Portuguese in 1511. Then not handed over to the British. What will happen if Japan occupation in Tanah Melayu still on...

One thing for sure, there will be no Malaysia and Indonesia...

There will be only NUSANTARA...

One country, one people...

smile would be nice, I can go to Jakarta without the need of my passport... and who knows NUSANTARA is much more wealthy compared to any o the other countries in the world...

Or the paradise for every bule to find wifes...

If only Portoguese didnt invade Melaka, and Dutch didnt conquer Indonesia...
_________________________
Hopeless, lifeless, clueless...
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#30601 - 11 May 06 13:54 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
Nooo! Let's turn the whole place into anarchy.

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#30602 - 11 May 06 14:10 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
We can all play what ifs.....

If the Dutch didnt invade someone else would have. The French? English? Japanese? Chinese?

You could say that the British invaded Australia and have never given it up. Take a look at the Australian economy..... Think what it would be if the land was left to the Aboriginals (as charming as they are). Or Canada left to Injuits.

It is easy to forget the advances brought about by colonists. "What indeed did the Romans ever do for us?......"

As Monty Python said: "Sanitation running water, law and order, etc etc etc"

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#30603 - 11 May 06 16:04 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Justice cannot be only sermonized about, but must be realized in the structure of the system and in the rules of the game, the laws and so on and it must be realized in deeds.
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30604 - 11 May 06 16:55 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
chicha_lex Offline
Member+

Registered: 07 Feb 06
Posts: 124
Loc: Saudi Arabia
As I say what if...

Because with all the 'good' things that colonisation brings to the the 'natives', it also bring the bad...

What colonisation brought was REVOLUTION. Revolution of culture, lifesytle, and everything else. Probably the aboriginies in Australia should be left as they are, as much as the WESTERN world think that the whole world should be like western world, some part of the world should be left as it is.

Western world left for so called new world because their world already chaotic, and bring their chaos into the aboriginies world...
_________________________
Hopeless, lifeless, clueless...
There's always hope when you're chasing camel...

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#30605 - 11 May 06 20:09 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
So modern medicine, ending disease, stopping the natives eating/killing each other, sanitation, roads, drains, law and order, an end to agrian starvation etc were all worth trading off in the name of nostalgia....

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#30606 - 11 May 06 23:25 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
chicha_lex, there is, or was, no option "should be", what happened in australia was inevitable, the aborigines were actually fortunate that it was the british who came and not the portugese, spanish or french who would have made really short work of them.

Today what the western world wants or thinks is irrelevant, what is happening, what people call 'globalisation', is also just part of history, nothing will stop it except a catastrophe like nuclear war. 'Western world' really means America doesn't it, just by existing America causes massive changes in the world. Again, it doesn't matter what they want.

It would be great if old cultures could survive, but if they are small, or weak, they are just done for.
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http://www.indonesiamatters.com/

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#30607 - 12 May 06 06:59 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I am reminded of a passage in a PJ ORouke book Holidays from Hell.

He was in Korea, and some Korean student started pushing him in the chest, blaming him personally for the US culture that was swamping his ethnic culture.

The Korean student was wearing Levi jeans, a Yale T shirt, baseball cap and Nikes…….

I admire any culture or nation that makes an effort to keep its tradition alive (Even kilt wearing Scotsmen) because it is diversity that makes the world interesting. I would rather eat Rat in a Kampung than McDonalds in Pussaraya.

(In Japan they have office Kimona/Yakata days, like we have office Casual Dress days. I used to look forward to it every time…….

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#30608 - 12 May 06 14:17 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
The most dangerous enemy at the present time is dogmatism, a kind of closed conviction that a particular doctrine is an infallible medicine for all problems and ignores the fact that human life is continually evolving, and that the development of civilization from the past to the present is the result of common endeavors, an accumulation of achievements supported by all nations.
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30609 - 12 May 06 14:47 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by Macan Tutul:
The most dangerous enemy at the present time is dogmatism, a kind of closed conviction that a particular doctrine is an infallible medicine for all problems and ignores the fact that human life is continually evolving, and that the development of civilization from the past to the present is the result of common endeavors, an accumulation of achievements supported by all nations.
I agree, a large pack of dogs can ruin a Polar Bears day, and the howling annoys the neighbours.

Give me a nice pussy any day......

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#30610 - 12 May 06 15:30 Re: Islam, Liberty,Justice and Freshening Up Understanding
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Every doctrine which wants to build a wall with a narrow interpretation such a doctrine is a social disease which will destroy basic values of Islam itself, the value of the equal dignity of the human race and the value that we are all members of one world.
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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