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#30553 - 08 May 06 09:17 Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
HOME / BREAKING NEWS

Brutal beheading of journalist who lived for Iraqi unity
The pitiless torture and murder of a top television presenter shows how depraved the country has become after three years of war, writes Hala Jaber, a friend of the victim
May 08, 2006
EVEN by the stupefying standards of Iraq's unspeakable violence, the murder of Atwar Bahjat, one of the country's top television journalists, was an act of exceptional cruelty.
Nobody but her killers knew just how much she had suffered until a film showing her death on February 22 at the hands of two musclebound men in military uniforms emerged last week. Her family's worst fears of what might have happened have been far exceeded by the reality.
Bahjat was abducted after making three live broadcasts from the edge of her native city of Samarra on the day its golden-domed Shia mosque was blown up, allegedly by Sunni terrorists.
Roadblocks prevented her from entering the city and her anxiety was obvious to everyone who saw her final report. Night was falling and tensions were high.
" "Two men drove up in a pick-up truck, asking for her. She appealed to a small crowd that had gathered around her crew but nobody was willing to help her. It was reported at the time that she had been shot dead with her cameraman and sound man.
We now know that it was not that swift for Bahjat. First she was stripped to the waist, a humiliation for any woman but particularly so for a pious Muslim who concealed her hair, arms and legs from men other than her father and brother.
Then her arms were bound behind her back. A golden locket in the shape of Iraq that became her glittering trademark in front of the television cameras must have been removed at some point - it is nowhere to be seen in the grainy film, which was made by someone who pointed a mobile phone at her as she lay on a patch of earth in mortal terror.
By the time filming begins, the condemned woman has been blindfolded with a white bandage.
It is stained with blood that trickles from a wound on the left side of her head. She is moaning, although whether from the pain of what has already been done to her or from the fear of what is about to be inflicted is unclear.
Just as Bahjat bore witness to countless atrocities that she covered for her television station, Al-Arabiya, during Iraq's descent into sectarian conflict, so the recording of her execution embodies the depths of the country's depravity after three years of war.
A large man dressed in military fatigues, boots and cap approaches from behind and covers her mouth with his left hand. In his right hand, he clutches a large knife with a black handle and a 20cm blade. He proceeds to cut her throat from the middle, slicing from side to side.
Her cries - "Ah, ah, ah" - can be heard above the "Allahu akbar" (God is greatest) intoned by the holder of the mobile phone.
Even then, there is no quick release for Bahjat. Her executioner suddenly stands up, his job only half done. A second man in a dark T-shirt and camouflage trousers places his right khaki boot on her abdomen and pushes down hard eight times, forcing a rush of blood from her wounds as she moves her head from right to left.
Only now does the executioner return to finish the task. He hacks off her head and drops it to the ground, then picks it up again and perches it on her bare chest so that it faces the film-maker in a grotesque parody of one of her pieces to camera.
The voice of one of the Arab world's most highly regarded and outspoken journalists has been silenced. She was aged 30.
As a friend of Bahjat who had worked with her on a variety of tough assignments, I found it hard enough to bear the news of her murder. When I saw it replayed, it was as if part of me had died with her. How much more gruelling it must have been for a close family friend who watched the film this weekend and cried when he heard her voice.
The friend, who cannot be identified, knew nothing of her beheading but had been guarding other horrifying details of Bahjat's ordeal. She had nine drill holes in her right arm and 10 in her left, he said. The drill had also been applied to her legs, her navel and her right eye. One can only hope that these mutilations were made after her death.
There is a wider significance to the appalling piece of footage and the accompanying details. The film appears to show for the first time an Iraqi death squad in action.
The death squads have proliferated in recent months, spreading terror on both sides of the sectarian divide. The clothes worn by Bahjat's killers are bound to be scrutinised for clues to their identity.
Bahjat, whose professionalism and impartiality as a half-Shi'ite, half-Sunni, would have been the first to warn against any hasty conclusions, however. The uniforms seem to be those of the Iraqi National Guard but that does not mean she was murdered by guardsmen. The fatigues could have been stolen for disguise.
A source linked to the Sunni insurgency who supplied the film to The Sunday Times in London claimed it had come from a mobile phone found on the body of a Shia Badr Brigade member killed during fighting in Baghdad. But there is no evidence that the Iranian-backed Badr militia was responsible. Indeed, there are conflicting indications. The drill is said to be a popular tool of torture with the Badr Brigade. But beheading is a hallmark of al-Qa'ida in Iraq, led by the Sunni Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
According to a report that was circulating after Bahjat's murder, she had enraged the Shia militias during her coverage of the bombing of the Samarra shrine by filming the Interior Minister, Bayan Jabr, ordering police to release two Iranians they had arrested.
There is no confirmation of this and the Badr Brigade, with which she maintained good relations, protected her family after her funeral came under attack in Baghdad from a bomber and then from a gunman. Three people died that day.
We may never know who killed Bahjat or why. But the manner of her death testifies to the breakdown of law, order and justice that she so bravely highlighted and illustrates the importance of a cause she espoused with passion.
Bahjat advocated the unity of Iraq and saw her golden locket as a symbol of her belief. She put it with her customary on-air eloquence on the last day of her life: "Whether you are a Sunni, a Shi'ite or a Kurd, there is no difference between Iraqis united in fear for this nation."
The Sunday Times
The Australian

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#30554 - 08 May 06 09:31 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
What a horrible way to go, so sad for those who wish to change their country, but cant change the people.......
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"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30555 - 08 May 06 09:50 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
well it's just as well the americans are there now so that they can set a good example.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30556 - 08 May 06 09:56 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
haha, did you hear about Georgie wanting to end the illegal detention of prisoners at Guanatanamo? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4983314.stm. Bet you the Yanks would be gutted if all of these prisoners were released without trial, it would be another pukeroo idea of the Bush administration that gets them dragged over the coals. Did you also here that 9 seperate states were wanting to sue the bush administration over the about of waste set for cars and trucks.
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30557 - 08 May 06 16:01 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
There was unlimited access to an Attorney General and there’s no charge or counsel in a Cuban prison camp!!! the right to a fair trial and due process, constitute a grave danger for Americans and foreign nationals alike. From the beginning, Guantanamo Bay was wrought with strife, example for the terrorist prisoners the Administration contends that the detainees are dangerous terrorists and thus do not deserve any legal protections, much less liberal sympathies. But after two years of investigations at the camp, the Administration has yet to charge any detainee with a crime or bring a case before a military tribunal. Thus, the public has no way to determine what alleged crimes these men are charged with committing, much less whether or not they are guilty.
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30558 - 08 May 06 19:03 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
NO NO NO NO NO

These people were captured as combatants in a war zone.

1. If they were soldiers fighting a war then they can be interned until the victor declares the war to be over. Take a look at WW1 and WW2 for examples. This is commonly accepted terms of war. YOU DON’T TRY PRISONERS OF WAR!
2. If they were “civilians” (as they may well claim) then they run a far greater risk. If they are found to be “illegal combatants” (eg terrorists who are civilians one minute and combatants the next) then under the terms of the Geneva convention they run the risk of being shot on sight. YOU SOOT UNMARKED COMBATANTS!

These are widely accepted terms of war. I know when I wear my uniform I identify myself as a combatant. For this reason it has the Rising Sun of Australia on the right arm, lest there be any mistake. In an actual combat Zone Australian soldiers also have the Australian flag on their left arm. If you take off this uniform you RISK BEING SHOT as a spy. Its as simple as that.

Incarceration in Guantanamo Bay is the least of the worries for this bunch of idiots.

Richard I had the right idea when he just massacred his prisoners on the Crusades. The Saldins army suddenly lost its will to fight when it found that the stakes were high! As Alan Clark once said when discussing a way to end the IRA reign of terror: “If we just murdered all 600 of them in their beds one night the problem would end once and for all”.

I tend to subscribe to these views. Slaughter the whole stinking bunch of them (I will do it myself) and let’s get it over with.

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#30559 - 08 May 06 19:13 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Qualification as POW
In principle to be entitled to prisoner of war status the captured service member must have conducted operations according to the laws and customs of war, e.g. be part of a chain of command, wear a uniform and bear arms openly. Thus, franc-tireurs, terrorists and spies may be excluded. In practice these criteria are not always interpreted strictly. Guerrillas, for example, may not wear a uniform or carry arms openly, yet are typically granted POW status if captured. However, guerrillas or any other combatant may not be granted the status if they try to use both the civilian and the military status. Thus, the importance of uniforms — or as in the guerrilla case, a badge — to keep this important rule of warfare.

An unlawful combatant (also unlawful enemy combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent) is a person who is accorded neither the rights a soldier would normally have under the laws of war, nor the civil rights a common criminal would normally have.

The phrase "unlawful combatant" does not appear in the Third Geneva Convention (GCIII). However, Article 4 of GCIII does describe categories of persons who are entitled to prisoner of war status. "Prisoner of war" is generally synonymous with "detained lawful combatant." Since the September 11, 2001 attacks, the Bush administration in particular has suggested that those who do not meet this definition should be determined to be "unlawful combatant." It is opined that by this definition legal protection under the Geneva Conventions is not warranted. By declaring that some detainees do not merit the protections of criminal law, because of their combatant activities, and that they do not merit the protections of jus in bello due to the unlawful nature of their combat, the use of the term in current legal discourse seems designed to put detainees beyond the reach of any law.

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#30560 - 08 May 06 19:19 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
And finally, we have the case of stupid fucking asshole Australian Hicks, who is trying to obtain British citizenship as a flag of convenience to get out of Guantanamo Bay.

Hicks is widely known for the phot of him holding an anti tank weapon (no doubt he was duck hunting at the time).

The week that Hicks won his appeal to get British citizenship, four British soldiers were killed by similar terrorists.

I am sick to death of this bleating for a bunch or murdering spineless arseholes.

Let Hicks out. I want a word the fucker. And it will be far worse than the Bay.

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#30561 - 08 May 06 19:28 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
In the first case, Padilla v. Rumsfeld, the Court will determine whether a U.S. citizen has the right to an attorney before disappearing into a military stockade without charges or contact with the outside world. The second case, involving the two appeals of Rasul v. Bush and Odah v. U.S., will decide if Guantanamo detainees can have access to civilian courts to challenge their detention. The most pressing issue in both cases calls into question the newly claimed Executive Branch power to detain any person indefinitely and without any recourse to judicial review.
Given the blatant lack of any legal protections for these alleged combatants, it is no wonder that former prisoner-of-war Senator John McCain expressed concern this week about what he saw after a recent visit to Guantanamo. Even prisoners suspected of serious crimes deserve fair and open legal proceedings
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30562 - 08 May 06 20:37 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
NO NO NO NO NO

They are MILITARY COMBATANTS who have defied the GENEVA CONVENTION.

Civil law isn’t worth a squirt of piss on a wet day during a war. In a war all social and civil (civilian) conventions and rules go out of the window. The object is to kill and main people. Civil laws WILL not and CANNOT work in a war.


To answer the specific points:

G Bay is NOT US territory. It is NOT NOT NOT subject to US LAW. US Citizens have NO FUCKING rights there. It is NO THE USA. It is a legal anomaly. It is a US base with no territorial rights. Civilians cannot ask for and cannot expect civilian laws.

If the Court rules it IS part of the USA then the USA is occupying part of Cuba by force, and will have ot give up the base. And that isn’t going to happen.

Why the fuck does anyone think the G Bay inmates have any rights????

This is a WAR, not a street disturbance.


Do you think if you asked the US Supreme court for permission to drop an Atomic bomb on Hiroshima they would have said it was lawful.

There is only one accepted set of laws in combat. The Geneva convention. The stupid fucking people in G Bay didn’t bother with that. So now they pay the price.

To try to impose laws is like handing out speeding tickets in a Formula 1 race.

Wars are nasty. People get killed. These people started it. Now they are suffering.

I personally would slaughter the whole lot as spies. Quite legal under the Geneva convention…..

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#30563 - 08 May 06 20:39 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
The Geneva Convention, with its guarantee of certain fundamental rights for all prisoners of war, was quickly sidelined by the Administration in favor of its own rules for the treatment and investigation of detainees. In the absence of any rule of law
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30564 - 08 May 06 20:41 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by Macan Tutul:
There was unlimited access to an Attorney General and there’s no charge or counsel in a Cuban prison camp!!! the right to a fair trial and due process, constitute a grave danger for Americans and foreign nationals alike.

YOU DO NOT CHARGE PRISONERS OF WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!

From the beginning, Guantanamo Bay was wrought with strife, example for the terrorist prisoners the Administration contends that the detainees are dangerous terrorists and thus do not deserve any legal protections, much less liberal sympathies. But after two years of investigations at the camp, the Administration has yet to charge any detainee with a crime or bring a case before a military tribunal.

YOU DO NOT CHARGE PRISONERS OF WAR!!!!!!!!!!


Thus, the public has no way to determine what alleged crimes these men are charged with committing, much less whether or not they are guilty.

YOU DO NOT CHARGE PRISONERS OF WAR!!!!!!!

They are held so they cannot return to combat, until the captors are satisfied the war is over. The USSR held some German prisoners (quite legally) until the early 1960s.

You do not charge prisoners of war. There is no precident, or requirement.


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#30565 - 08 May 06 20:51 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
You strike me a lot PB dear???
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#30566 - 08 May 06 21:00 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by Macan Tutul:
The Geneva Convention, with its guarantee of certain fundamental rights for all prisoners of war, was quickly sidelined by the Administration in favor of its own rules for the treatment and investigation of detainees. In the absence of any rule of law
Let me make it really simple.

If you want ot be protected by the Geneva Convention you MUST obey its rules. Wear a uniform or identifying markers.

This bunch of goons thought they would be clever little terrorists and be civilians one day, combatants the next. That isnt part of the Geneva convention, so they dont get its protection.

You cant be "half pregnant", and you cannot "half obey" the Geneva Convention.

They fucked up, not the USA. now they pay the penalty.

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#30567 - 09 May 06 01:06 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally posted by KuKuKaChu:
well it's just as well the americans are there now so that they can set a good example.
Quote:
Originally posted by PB:
Richard I had the right idea when he just massacred his prisoners on the Crusades. The Saldins army suddenly lost its will to fight when it found that the stakes were high!
Americans should be everywhere, they should be pervasive. I love Americans.

But Americans are not that brutal, certainly not near the level of the arabs. What the arabs understand is brute force, they respect it, and anything less than it is interpreted as weakness. There is the big problem in Iraq. If christians behave as christians they get slaughtered. But even when they don't behave exactly as christians they still have that sense of guilt which is so important in christianity/western civilisation, and that hampers them, stops them from doing what, in strictly utilitarian terms, is necessary for the stated goals in this case.

Arabs have shame, but no guilt.
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http://www.indonesiamatters.com/

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#30568 - 09 May 06 09:21 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by patung:
Arabs have shame, but no guilt.
muslim culture seems to have envolved to be amoral, rather than immoral. there is no remorse (or at best, only temporary remorse). most think that asking for forgiveness -- which is always supposed to be given if asked for -- will fix everything. past sins, big and small, are thus quickly forgotten. ask any indonesian about 1965. the vast majority don't know and/or don't care.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30569 - 09 May 06 10:04 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by patung:
What the arabs understand is brute force, they respect it, and anything less than it is interpreted as weakness.
Which is the point I was making about Richard 1.

It is an awful thing to even consider, but since they do not recognise or consider kindness, consideration or mercy, why should we offer it. Richard discovered, after he massacred several thousand prisoners (because he had no facilities to keep them, the prisoners refused to agree to convert to Christianity, and Saladin would not pay any ransom, making them worthless) that the Muslims actually respected him more for his brutality.

Having said that, he later met Salidins younger brother and took an absolute liking to the man, finding him a kindred soul. After this he never again showed any brutality towards Muslim prisoners.

The same logic applies to G Bay. Its existence, and the tales of horror inside it (which are really no more than any Australian prison) keep many would be terrorists at bay.

Slaughtering the inmates would do an even better job. As dreadful as it is to even consider or suggest, doing so would end terrorism for good, for the loss of a few hundred lives.

As I pointed out about the IRA, at its height it only ever had about 600 active members, yet they killed 3000 people in terrorist attacks over 30 years.

Murdering all 600 in one night would have saved 5 times as many innocent civilians. Simple maths.

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#30570 - 09 May 06 10:16 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Just to explain, now I am in a more calm and considerate mood.

The inmates of G Bay are either lawful combatants (obey Geneva conventions, wear uniform/identification, open display of weapons etc) or illegal combatants.

Lawful combatants are help prisoners of war until a declaration of surrender. Then they are released. They are not charged with any crime. They have committed no crime. They are prisoners of war.

Illegal combatants covers spies, terrorists, gorillas, etc. They don’t abide by the Geneva convention, and get no protection from it. Normal practise is to shoot them. Take a look at any war from the Franco Prussian to the Falklands. Big boys games, big boys rules.

The G Bay inmates have two sticky choices.

They can declare themselves lawful combatants – and end up rotting in G Bay until the USA declares victory over terrorism (that will never occur), or admit to being Illegal combatants and take a chance in front of a military commission. That may include being shot.

Most are too scared to do anything and come up with bullshit excuses as to why they were caught in a war zone with evidence of combat.

As I say – Big Boys Games, Big Boys Rules. Go carrying a gun in a combat zone and you end up in the shit.

Personally, as an Army Officer, I would have shot them on the spot. I would them be charged with murder………

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#30571 - 09 May 06 10:22 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
QUOTE]

But Americans are not that brutal, certainly not near the level of the arabs. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I would have thought it came down to the individual, not the country you came from. And American's not that brutal....physically, no they dont show the same brutality, but's that not to say it doesnt go on. Westerner's will naturally cover-up any brutality, because of western media, and western perception of their actions. Can you remember what Barbara Bush said about New Orleans "What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them." http://urbanlegends.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?. It sounded pretty brutal at the time, at least it probably did to those in New Orleans. They also might have thought the government was handling their case brutally.

bru·tal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (brtl)
adj.
Extremely ruthless or cruel.
Crude or unfeeling in manner or speech.
Harsh; unrelenting: a brutal winter in the Arctic.
Disagreeably precise or penetrating: spoke with brutal honesty.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
brutal·ly adv.
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30572 - 09 May 06 10:50 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie:
I would have thought it came down to the individual, not the country you came from.
Culture and religion have an important part in behaviour and it is possible to make generalisations based on that. There are also individual determinants but these are shaped by culture.

Or put it like this. Let's say the occupying army in iraq were not american but russian. Things would be different in a broad, obvious way.

Aside - Turns out the video of the journalist was a semi-hoax, actually it shows the murder of a Nepalese man. She was still murdered though, just not in that video.
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http://www.indonesiamatters.com/

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#30573 - 09 May 06 11:03 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
I just think that Americans could be as brutal as any other nation. There politicians have be covering it up for a long time, and therefore, naturally will cover any such brutality up. On the other hand, we are seeing more and more Brutality in the Arabic world on T.V. Therefore it is shocking, pretty much like those pictures of those prisoners at G. Bay, when they came out. Can you honestly say for a fact that the Arabs are more brutal westerners?? If we all believed we are fighting a holy war, and both sides were killing, whose opinion of who is brutal, counts??
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30574 - 09 May 06 11:03 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Just so you know, I am not siding with a particular sect, I am just creating conversation, cos work is boring!!

Cheers

The Magpie
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30575 - 09 May 06 11:17 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
I'd rather be a citizen of america than any arab country and I'd rather have my country occupied by an american army than an arab one. basically what I'm saying is that western civ is preferable to arab civ and that is ultimately seen in the behaviour of peoples as a whole, which is what I meant by "Americans". But of course americans as individuals can do terrible things like anyone.

Karl Marx said that the british empire was the greatest civilising force in history. I wonder what he would have thought of America in this respect?
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http://www.indonesiamatters.com/

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#30576 - 09 May 06 11:23 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Good point, very good point, I generally concur, hoewever, being from the UK, I really have a large dislike for America as a rule. The usual "Why are they so arrogant, so big, so loud, so over the top". The only good reason I can think of ever visiting America is the Grand Canyon, otherwise known as WD's....... Joke! South America hold a lot more appeal, not so many North Americans to deal with.
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#30577 - 09 May 06 11:33 Re: Atwar Bahjat a good Muslim girl murdered by bad Muslim men...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by patung:
Aside - Turns out the video of the journalist was a semi-hoax, actually it shows the murder of a Nepalese man. She was still murdered though, just not in that video.
Whew....

Thank God for that. Its was olblt a Nepalese man who had his head half cut off, then stood on, had his arms drill into, then the resto fo his head hacked off.

Makes me rethink my dicision not to book there for my holiday. FUCKING ANIMALS.

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