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#30016 - 29 Mar 06 14:07 TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
From Tempo http://www.tempointeractive.com/hg/nasional/2006/03/28/brk,20060328-75649,uk.html

Indonesian Police Chief: Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
Tuesday, 28 March, 2006 | 08:59 WIB

Tempo Interactive, Jakarta: Indonesian Police Chief, Sutanto has said he assumes that rumors spread by foreign parties are aimed at splitting Indonesia apart.
He called on all elements of the nation not to be provoked because this would only further the interests of the foreign parties.

”This provocation from outside parties is extremely cruel,” Sutanto told the press at Sari Pan Pacific Hotel, after his speech at a State-Owned Enterprises (SOEs) CEO gathering.

Sutanto said there were clear indications of the involvement of foreign NGOs, especially Australia NGOs, in the Abepura riot.

This is shown by the protests against PT Freeport Indonesia’s activities which occurred in many places at the same time.

“You can see it yourself,” he said.

Sutanto asked all community elements to be firm and bond against these foreign efforts.
“We must not become the tools of foreign parties, as this would cause losses,” he said

According to him, the rumor of the deaths of 16 Cendrawasih University students is mere slander.
“I ask that this rumor not be repeated,” said Sutanto

Budiriza
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#30017 - 29 Mar 06 20:24 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
this is a sad and dangerous sign, but I believe what Sutanto says..... frown

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#30018 - 31 Mar 06 08:44 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
the indonesian "over-reaction" to the papuan visa issue can be understood remembering that a similar pattern of australian government support and australian community opposition was seen in the matter of east timor. indoensians, particularly of the nationalist bent, are understandably sceptical of australian denials of "interference" in papua given what happened in east timor. australia is seen as being two-faced and unreliable, from the nationalist perspective.
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#30019 - 31 Mar 06 08:55 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
One sad fact that i learned long ago, is the countries are little more than polite gangsters. they try to steal anythnig they can. Britain excelled at it for many years.

I strongly suspect that Australia is up to its armpits in destablilising WP. And probably in Bali as well.....

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#30020 - 31 Mar 06 09:02 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
deliberate or not, an unstable and weak indonesia suits australia just fine ... a strong indonesia would very much constitute a threat, economically and militarily, especially at this stage in its political development.
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#30021 - 31 Mar 06 09:10 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Exactly. The west saw how to deal with the Communist Block. Break it up into small pieces.

Iraq will go the same way - into three separate states.

I suspect that the USA will push for the same in China.

And Australia would like Indonesia to be a series of small nations.

Of course if anyone suggested autonomy for West Australia or Alaska, there would be uproar....

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#30022 - 31 Mar 06 09:34 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
in fact, western australia voted for secession from the commonwealth in a referendum. however, because the incumbent labor premier lost office in the election held at the same time, the incoming conservative premier quietly dropped the matter.

but then, western australia did join the federation voluntarily in 1901, unlike papua and east timor, which were forced at gunpoint into the indonesian republic. indonesia's hold on these territories will thus be forever questionable and open to challege.
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#30023 - 01 Apr 06 07:54 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Western Australia generates massive amounts of cash with its mineral industries. It could suceed from the commonwealth and survive no problem.

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#30024 - 01 Apr 06 08:51 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by Polar Bear:
Western Australia generates massive amounts of cash with its mineral industries. It could suceed from the commonwealth and survive no problem.
economically, it would do exceedingly well on its own. politically, it's another story. you have a population of less than 1.5million mostly concentrated in perth in a state of 1 million square kilometers. isolation is a keyword here. and with hungry eyes in china and (perhaps) indonesia in the future, western australia cannot afford to go it alone....
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#30025 - 01 Apr 06 08:58 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I agree, and this neatly sums up East timor and West Papua.

They have the resources but just dont have the population or infrastructure to go it alone.

I seem to remember reading the other day that 2/3 of ET defence force walked off the job the other day......

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#30026 - 01 Apr 06 08:59 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Mar 31 21:43

Eighteen foreign nationals flee East Timor to Indonesia


Kupang, E Nusa Tenggara (Antara News) - Eighteen foreign nationals who resided in East Timor fled to the eastern Indonesian province of East Nusa Tenggara late on Thursday as the political and security situation in the former Portuguese colony worsened.

"Around 18 foreign nationals crossed the East Nusa Tenggara border from Dili, capital of East Timor, late on Thursday and the Indonesian immigration authorities in the border area are processing (their applications for stay permit)," chief of the 161/Wirasakti district military command Col. ARJ Noch Bola told ANTARA by phone on Friday.

The foreign nationals came from the United States, Portugal, Australia, the Philippines, China and South Korea.

He said around 54 Indonesian nationals who earned livehood in Dili also had fled East Timor to the border area.

The political and security situation in East Timor had been worsening over the past few weeks after Commander of the East Timor Defence Force (FDTL) Brig. Gen. Taur Matan Ruak sacked 600 of his men.

Some 300 armed FDTL personnel who had been declared deserters continued to make trouble in the East Timorese capital, raising fears among foreign nationals living in the territory.

The other 300 deserters are reportedly consolidating their efforts in the forests to strengthen their struggle after being dishonorably discharged by the FDTL commander.

Reports had it that the dishonorable discharge was part of "big engineering" to create political and security instability in East Timor in a bid to maintain the presence of UN officers assigned in the country.

The UN officers were expected to conclude their tasks in East Timor on May 20. But given the latest developments they may stay longer in East Timor.(*)

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#30027 - 01 Apr 06 09:02 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
So exactly 6 years after independence East Timor is sliding into anarchy and westerners (who argued for the independence) are running to the Indonesian controled areas....

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#30028 - 01 Apr 06 10:50 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
East Timor might be another Papua New Guinea - a basket case. West Papua would be another like it if it were independent.

I would have thought that it is in Australia's national interest for a strong, unified Indonesia. If there is conflict it means refugees, and from Indonesia there could be an awful LOT of them - Australia sure doesn't want that problem.
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#30029 - 01 Apr 06 21:36 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
many years ago when the east timor issue was hot in australia, i was very unpopular in certain circles for my reluctance to support east timorese independence, mainly on the grounds that such an entity would quickly become a burden -- politically and economically -- on the australian state. australia is surrounded by economic basket cases that it feels obliged to support, mainly because if australia doesn't support them, then other foreign powers will, and this would constitute a threat to australia's long term security. thus, to add papua to the list would be madness, and those in the australian community who blindly support papuan independence are shooting themselves and a future generation of australians in the foot.
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#30030 - 01 Apr 06 21:56 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by patung:
http://www.indonesiamatters.com/
patung, i've checked out your website ... looks useful, however i'm a bit confused with it because there is no statement of purpose or contact or who is running it ... are you intending to develop it further? and in what direction? how many people are involved in supporting the site?
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#30031 - 02 Apr 06 02:32 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
Well I'm not entirely sure about what to do on that side of things. Sometimes I talk about sensitive topics like um, Islam, and....... some people might, and do, get offended and I don't want them coming to my place to let me know about it....

It is run by me alone, I do have vague plans about extending things, but not exactly sure where or how to start. Obviously I need to do a makeover on the design, it's too plain jane, works if it stays just a blog but not for other more ambitious things.

Thanks for asking about it.
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#30032 - 02 Apr 06 11:06 Re: TEMPO/Foreigners Trying to Split Indonesia Apart
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
The whole idea of what constitutes a nation state is a complex one.

We now live in multicultural world, so cultural affinity doesn’t mean nationhood. With modern communications, geographical boundaries don’t enforce nationhood. Religions play little importance now.

All of this means that the historical affinities that created states, and served to give the cohesion, no longer exist.

However, there must still remain some reasons to maintain national identities. If this were not so, every nation would break down into smaller and smaller states. Regions would demand independence from nations. Cities would break away from regions. Suburbs would break away from cities. Streets would declare independence from Suburbs.

Firstly, populations need to bond into groups that achieve critical mass. This mass is required to provide all of the disparate needs of a group – defence, governance, food production and trade, medicine etc.

Secondly, nations consist of a population and a land mass. This land mass has assets – agricultural, mineral, and strategic. Some nations have the assets but not the population mass to take advantage of them, or to defend them.

Thirdly, nations have group egos based upon historical perspectives. Britain went to war in 1982 over a small worthless island thousands of miles away from London, purely based upon ego. The USA fought a brutal civil war to prevent the “South” from breaking away from the alliance.

There are no cultural, religious, racial or geographical reasons why West Papua (or East Timor) should remain part of Indonesia. However both of these regions don’t have population critical masses to achieve true nationhood. There are ego, strategic, and asset reasons why they should remain aligned to Indonesia.

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