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#29943 - 24 Mar 06 14:28 JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes


Ati Nurbaiti, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta

Walking along Jakarta's streets or through its shopping malls, you might encounter a familiar scene -- two girls walking hand in hand, one covered from head to toe and one in a tank top or short skirt. They're giggling and gossiping away, while we fret over whether we should let the powers that be rule on what women wear.

It's a scene that brings relief amid the adult wars of conservatives versus liberals, or whatever labels you prefer. It's also embarrassing -- don't we adults have anything better to do? It seems these youngsters understand much better than us what plurality and tolerance entail: respect for the differences of people who remain friends no matter what.

These girls are from a generation that accommodates drastically different dress codes, leading to heads wagging over both bared bra straps (be thankful the bra is there!) and shapeless, tent-like, floor-sweeping skirts that break the once strict dress code for formal office wear.

Women who prefer the floor-length skirts say not everyone's comfortable in tight knee-length skirts; I'm following what I believe to be God's instructions, and I want freedom to move and privacy from leering eyes.

The result of this accommodated variety has been a pleasing interaction of different ideals and a greater appreciation for these differences compared to the days under Soeharto. During his rule, expressions of political Islam were suppressed and girls were thrown out of school for wearing the jilbab -- but young rebels kept challenging the regime in black top-to-toe veils, even if they risked being snubbed by fashionable peers.

Now the veil has become common, visible in various styles and colors. A recent rumor of a newscaster banned from appearing on camera because she wanted to wear a veil caused an uproar. Many people want the acceptance of differences to remain, regardless of whether they think women should be covered or not.

And if the country went the way of France or Turkey, and told girls to remove their veils, even if only in public schools, there would be a new wave of resistance. That is just the way people are, especially when they are young.

Actually the reverse is happening. The well-intended porn bill is not focusing on what women should wear; yet in several areas of the country where moral codes have become regional rules, that is the only issue, with the heaviest assurance of implementation among all the different rules on decent conduct.

Many want the porn bill passed to protect the young, but the current draft is far from convincing. If it is the porn industry that should be punished for exploiting women and children, then stick to that and leave the women and children alone.

Then again you think, maybe some regulation would be good? This is when you're trying hard to stifle a gasp at the sight of your daughter's revealed backside. The girl sees your raised eyebrows and fruitlessly pulls down her shirt with a grin. It's just skin, Mom, get over it. Longer T-shirts? Soo stale, basi.

Then her sister asks, "Mama, could we really be punished for wearing sabrinas?" -- meaning off-the-shoulder blouses or T-shirts.

I'd love a rule which would make parenting easier. Then you wouldn't have to dither between allowing your children freedom and keeping the scowl off your face at peeping underwear. That's the dilemma of anxious aging "liberals with daughters in high school", as one U.S. Republican taunted Democrats.

But liberal or not, I have no trust in any representative of the law defining, let alone penalizing, the "exposure of body parts in public".

Besides, those scenes of trusting friends, no matter what the other is wearing, are too precious to lose in an often frustrating land.
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#29944 - 24 Mar 06 18:09 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
cherry Offline
Member**

Registered: 08 Nov 05
Posts: 1055
Loc: Indonesia
I wanted to comment but frightened the slip of the tongue...
but whatever,everyone had the right to dress and have an appearance as they wish...even,over both bared bra straps..
but they felt comfy and safety...so go ahead...!
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#29945 - 25 Mar 06 10:34 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
lucille_ball Offline
Member+

Registered: 02 Feb 06
Posts: 38
Loc: Jakarta
I guess everyone had the rights to wear anything they wanted as long as it made them comfortable and safe and as for the porn bill are being drafted in order to minimize porn action and to save youngster from being exploided, i guess it would be better if the bill are focused on the porn-industry that being 'wild' nowadays in Jakarta. those cheap tabloid that often sell women with big boops and ass are moral less. those kind of industry are the one that the government should pay attention to and not to how girls should wear.

i'm just wondering what about if i wear clothes covered from head to toe with the written "do me" is that considered as porn wink

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#29946 - 08 Apr 06 07:37 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
mediamom Offline
Member

Registered: 08 Apr 06
Posts: 1
Loc: canada
Whatever anyone thinks about what to wear or not and howver fast the rule of fasion police excelerates the bottom line is how the economy of Indonesia will be ground into the dust as the choke hold on the country tightens....these fanatics will never give up and the country will only wake up when the tourists,foreign investment, trade and the free movement of people is strangled. This has nothing to do with wanting to please God and everything to do with hate, control and fear mongering for purposes of power.
Poverty--lack of education and decent medical facilities will be gone but it will be too late then. Have we learned nothing from other countries?

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#29947 - 08 Apr 06 08:11 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
you got that right. this whole "anti pornography" movement is absolutely not about "morality", but everything to do with power, and certain wanna-be elites who employ religion as a tool of power.
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#29948 - 08 Apr 06 09:44 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Religion thrives on two things. Lack of education and poverty.

to propogate Islam the fanatics have to keep the people stupid and poor. They do a pretty good job.....

SHOW ME THE MONEY (or at least intorduce me to my 40 virgins before i do anything for you...)

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#29949 - 08 Apr 06 10:44 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
i've always thought of rabid islamists -- or extremists of any sort -- to be half-educated rather than uneducated. somebody with a half-education is far more narrow-minded and dangerous than someone without any education at all.
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#29950 - 08 Apr 06 10:48 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
This week, Melbourne academics Katherine Betts and Ernest Healy released a study comparing Lebanese Muslims with Lebanese Christians.

"Lebanese Muslim men have low levels of education, relatively high levels of unemployment and a very high tendency not to be in paid work," they say.

The white jobless rate is 6.3per cent; for overseas-born couples it is 14.7per cent, while the Lebanese-born are at 37.6 per cent.

ISLAM - KEEPING YOU POOR, KEEPING YOU STUPID!!!

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#29951 - 08 Apr 06 10:56 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by KuKuKaChu:
i've always thought of rabid islamists -- or extremists of any sort -- to be half-educated rather than uneducated. somebody with a half-education is far more narrow-minded and dangerous than someone without any education at all.
I was originally an engineer. I still think like an engineer. black and white, on or off.

i have problems with religion, because of this outlook. Show me any religion and i can rip it to pieces. Questioning any religious fanatic ends when they say "GOD TOLD ME"

My logic is simple. If god exists, why the fuck doesnt he turn up and sort soem of this shit out?

The fanatics always wave the Bible or koran under my nose and chant some garbage mantra.

I wave an engineering manual under their nose. i can show and prove every part of it. This is my job as an Engineer.

Religious fanatics cannot do the same.....

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#29952 - 08 Apr 06 15:34 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
I think the rabid Islamists, particularly the leaders of such groups, in the middle east anyway, are people with quite high education, a lot of them western educated, although it is mainly education of a technical, training kind, rather than real education, like in the humanities. Education is over-rated. Or it's not, the fact that they are educated enables them to see the real position of Islam, on the <a href="http://www.indonesiamatters.com/122/on-the-scrapheap-of-history/">scrapheap of history</a>, and that's what fuels their militancy.

PB I think the real power of religion is the problem of DEATH. Many people cannot bear the prospect of their own deaths, and what that entails for the meaning of their lives now, and that's where religion steps in. Whether it's logical or not doesn't matter, people will believe anything if they need to. An engineering textbook, while it might be very interesting, is not going to console anyone who is confronting their own oblivion.
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#29953 - 08 Apr 06 17:04 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I disagree.

They hold pieces of paper from educational establishments. Most studied as fee paying overseas students. They are guaranteed a degree. I studied with such people. Plagiarism was endemic, and cheating was blatant. They are in a “buy your degree” world. Many simply don’t understand sufficient English to study a complex subject.

I sometimes work with such people in the IT world. I am astounded at what little they actually know. They understand the (very) basics only.

A second problem is cultural. It is normal in the west to question things. I question the wisdom of my superiors, and the technical issues of applications. This is not culturally acceptable in many cultures. This leads to siloed thinking.

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#29954 - 08 Apr 06 17:08 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
http://blogs.theage.com.au/yoursay/archives/2006/03/overseas_studen.html
I am a mature-age Masters Student and I am amazed at how uni has changed since my undergrad days. I am the only 'white-faced English speaker' in my class and I'm sick of the lazy lecturer syndrome. I dread the group projects I have to do - I end up having to do most of the work as my fellow students don't understand enough English. The lecturers offload all their work onto the students, instead of teaching us. I can read a book on my own - the uni is supposed to provide a structured, competent course. I have little wonder that we can't find competent employees anymore - the quality of the universities has fallen dramatically! I'm glad I did my undergrad 15 years ago - I still had to pay something, but the lecturers worked a lot harder and we learnt more.
• Posted by: Swingbyte

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#29955 - 08 Apr 06 22:31 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
PB, your analysis is pretty spot on. When I did my undergrad, I had to study twice as hard as other students (mostly the Aussies). It was not so much as to understand the subjects but also to prove to the Aussies that I can play with them on the same pitch and not get belted. I'm proud that I achieved that with hard work. I knew a few of my fellow overseas students (especially those with rich parents) were only there to get a piece of paper to prove to their parents that they got something.

I am also concerned at how the current education system from primary level up to uni. It seems that the Ed. Dept of each state and at federal level are all hell bent on lowering the standard or watered everything down to supposedly level the playing field for the students. Their thoughts seem to be to lower it to the lowest common denominator. It's a bit like the draft system in league footy.

This in turn lowers the quality of the undergrads thus lowers the quality of employees. Looking at the new apprentices and undergrads that I have come across, I can't bear to read their English on their resumes let alone reports. And I have only been using English in the last 18 yrs of my life as my first choice in writing and conversation language.

Shame shame shame...

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#29956 - 09 Apr 06 08:52 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by patung:
I think the rabid Islamists, particularly the leaders of such groups, in the middle east anyway, are people with quite high education, a lot of them western educated, although it is mainly education of a technical, training kind, rather than real education, like in the humanities.
this is true. nearly all the top terrorists are engineers or technicians of one kind or another, and their education was very 2-dimentional. i have yet to hear of a terrorist/extremeist who was, say, a history graduate, or sociologist, or political scientist. technical education has to be balanced with humanities. i remember students from physical sciences who had to do some very basic humanities units to complete their degree; they often struggled to put together coherent essays. education just isn't about "what" you know, but it's also about how you think and structure your thoughts. this is partly what i meant when i said that extremists are "half-educated".
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#29957 - 09 Apr 06 09:12 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Hey, thats me...... smile

In fact after Engineering I read marketing, and it was a different world....

Suddenly is was a world of grey. I found it much harder.

BUT - take note. I also found it to be a world where BS ruled. I heard some total CRAP passed off as radical thinking.

Goof is right. Eucation has shifted from teaching to how to think/learn, to "like this, do that". Case study after case study.

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#29958 - 09 Apr 06 09:18 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
You know, the less educated they are the easier it is for them to get swayed either way.

We're in OZ and those in the US are predominantly Christian society, but the respective incumbent govts. seem to be heading towards a less educated society. Scary shit!

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#29959 - 09 Apr 06 09:24 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
it's exactly that grey world that fanaticism hates; it can't deal with it. a small dose of humanities teaches people that the world is not a simple place. sure, there's no shortage of bullshit in social sciences, but that's partly the point: an humanities education *should* teach you to be sceptical and not accept things at face value.
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#29960 - 09 Apr 06 09:33 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Thats a fair commet kuku, and i hadn't thought of it like that.

Certainly structured thinking, essential in technical education, does lead to myopic viewpoints.

but we live in a factual world.

Ask an engineer what happens if you push a finger in the power socket and he/she will tell you about voltage, amperage, conversion to heat, resistance, muscle contractions, heart damage, burning flesh etc

a humanaties student just says "hey man, its a new experience"

smile

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#29961 - 09 Apr 06 09:35 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
And as an Engineer (and proud to be one) I still ask:

SHOW ME PROOF OF GOD

All the BS in the world doesnt cover up some glaring incosistencies in religion.

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#29962 - 09 Apr 06 09:54 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by Polar Bear:
And as an Engineer (and proud to be one) I still ask:

SHOW ME PROOF OF GOD

All the BS in the world doesnt cover up some glaring incosistencies in religion.
people -- and not just hard-ass engineers -- have been making the same observations since the dawn of history.

others of a sociological bent ask the questions: WHY do people believe in gods, despite fuck all physical evidence? What purpose does god-belief and religion serve?

That many people continue to believe in gods and religions is an undisputable fact. This is what needs explanation. god is irrelevant.
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#29963 - 09 Apr 06 09:58 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by g00f13:
You know, the less educated they are the easier it is for them to get swayed either way.

We're in OZ and those in the US are predominantly Christian society, but the respective incumbent govts. seem to be heading towards a less educated society. Scary shit!
i'm not sure you could call australia a "christian" society. it is certainly a country whose core values have been shaped by judeo-christian traditions and beliefs, but the fact is that now it is a predominantly secular society.

i've also noticed a steady "reductionism" in educational standards; this has been happening in the US for years, so i guess it had to spread to oz sometime...
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#29964 - 09 Apr 06 12:19 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I have this theory. It is the human minds incapabilty to concieve infinity that caused religion....

"GOD IS HIDING IM MY UNDERPANTS"

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#29965 - 09 Apr 06 13:37 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Thus, according to the avatar, God is a Sausage!
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#29966 - 09 Apr 06 13:49 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
praise be to the Great Sausage! our saviour! if only we believe in the Great Sausage we will not die!
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#29967 - 09 Apr 06 13:57 Re: JP/Please, let's keep the kids away from prying eyes
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Our Sausage which art in the deep freeze
Hallowed be thy name
thou art used in bed
as tho art used in the car back seat

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