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#29682 - 22 Feb 06 08:16 Freedom of Speech
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Whilst the world is in shock about the Muslim reaction to the “cartoons”, which were published to demonstrate “freedom of speech", a much smaller scenario has been played out in an Austrian (NOT AUSTRALIAN) courtroom.

David Irving is a self taught historian. Some of his books are widely respected. He managed to obtain many rare diaries, and had access to a range of sources. Unfortunately his area of interest is German involvement in worlds war 2. I have his “Churchill’s War” on my desk right now, and although I don’t like how it portrays Churchill, I have to agree that it is very factual.

But some left wing and Jewish elements didn’t like what he said about the Holocaust – the murder of Jews and “undesirables” by Germany.

Jews have boasted that they have managed to get him banned from Australia. His American opponents relish trying to disrupt his progress, telephoning hotels and restaurants in advance to cancel his bookings. One Jewish website recalls a US tour where Irving was forced to stay in cheap motels.

So here we have a man who rightly or wrongly, makes comment upon events 65 years ago, but because a group of people don’t like what he says, he is protested against, attacked, and banned from some countries.

He is bankrupt, having fought a libel case against a Jewish woman, having been found guilty by a Jewish judge. At the age of 67 he has no money or possessions. The Jewish woman – Deborrah Lipstadt, seized his collection of papers and diaries, destroying somer of them so that he can never appeal, not can the truth ever be determined. Invaluable historic evidence has been shredded so that no one can ever challenge the Jewish version of events.

Last night he was sentenced to 3 years in jail in Austria for something he said 12 years ago.

So don’t worry about publishing cartoons – that is just freedom of speech. But if you say the Jewish version of events is incorrect, they will hunt you down to the end.

Freedom of speech - only if it suits the Jews!

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#29683 - 22 Feb 06 08:53 Re: Freedom of Speech
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
yep, freedom of speech is non-negotiable. even for twits. in fact, especially for twits.
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#29684 - 22 Feb 06 09:00 Re: Freedom of Speech
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I dont know if Irving is a twit or not.

I have read the book "Hitlers War".... downlosd it for free and read it at:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Hitler/

I dont see it as being particularly objectionable. Much of what he says fits in with other documented facts. But the two fold issues are:

1. He should have the right to say it.
2. Lidstadt is totally wrong to shred historic records - especially when it is an attempt to prevent anyone proving that her version of events was incorrect....

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#29685 - 22 Feb 06 09:04 Re: Freedom of Speech
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I once had lunch with a guy who told me he lost all of his family at Aushwitz. a few months later I met his older sister......

but hey, never let the truth get in the way of a good story!!!

Like middle aged American men who all claim to have served in the 'Nam, losing all of your family in a concentration camp is some sort of badge of honour for elderly jews.

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#29686 - 22 Feb 06 09:50 Re: Freedom of Speech
lucille_ball Offline
Member+

Registered: 02 Feb 06
Posts: 38
Loc: Jakarta
when it comes offending the jews then the society will haunted him.
Last night i saw the news on BBC about the holocaust trial (i forgot in which country, i guess its somewhere around europe). And the amount of the news and the eager of the society and the authorities is really shown. It is different when it comes to d cartoon controversy. the society tend to let it go, in fact i think right now its getting worse, where i heard there is a statue of prophet muhammad are being shown.
it sound unfair ya

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#29687 - 22 Feb 06 10:55 Re: Freedom of Speech
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
There are laws against public espousal of Holocaust denial in Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Switzerland.

Freedom of speech. LMAO.

So we believe everything we are told, and cannot even discuss any other version of events!!!!


In 1984, James Keegstra, a Canadian high-school teacher was charged with denying the Holocaust and making anti-semitic claims in his classroom as part of the course material. Keegstra and his lawyer, Doug Christie, argued that the section of the Criminal Code (now section319{2}), is an infringement of the Charter of Rights (section 9{b}). The case was appealed to the Supreme court of Canada, where it was decided that the law he was convicted under did infringe on his freedom of expression, but it was a justified infringement. Keegstra was convicted, and fired from his job.

Former Canadian resident Ernst Zündel operated a small-press publishing house called Samisdat Publishing. In 1985, he was tried and convicted under a "false news" law and sentenced to 15 months imprisonment by an Ontario court for "disseminating and publishing material denying the Holocaust."

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#29688 - 22 Feb 06 11:03 Re: Freedom of Speech
Lulu Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 19 Feb 06
Posts: 2226
Loc: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally posted by lucille_ball:
when it comes offending the jews then the society will haunted him.
Last night i saw the news on BBC about the holocaust trial (i forgot in which country, i guess its somewhere around europe). And the amount of the news and the eager of the society and the authorities is really shown. It is different when it comes to d cartoon controversy. the society tend to let it go, in fact i think right now its getting worse, where i heard there is a statue of prophet muhammad are being shown.
it sound unfair ya
Aahhh, yes LB it's not just sound unfair but the world full of unfairness.

A week ago someone close to me and a devoted mosleem said "the westerner so dumb make us angry with the prophet Muhammad cartoon, what if next time there is Jesus cartoon? see how angry they are the westerner"

I frowned with his statement. His statement is one unfairness for me as non mosleem.

Do they ever know Muhammad is also prophet in Christiany bible, do they ever know that Jesus is also prophet in Alquran? Why one earth we want to insult our prophets?
Why they always think that western = christian. That's not correctly true. Ask any westerner you know how many times they go to church in their entire life....
_________________________
"The human heart feel things the eyes cannot see, and knows what the mind cannot understand"

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#29689 - 22 Feb 06 11:17 Re: Freedom of Speech
Lulu Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 19 Feb 06
Posts: 2226
Loc: Indonesia
"FREEDOM OF SPEECH"

ahhhh...how lovely and fair is that sound....

Bear, your story earlier about the guy in Aushwitz, is it not also just a minor form freedom of speech?
Everyone, can say whatever, whenever, bla, bla, bla, bla

so, don't we all just love fredoom of speech?
wink at least to add some spices to a dreadful story who is no one care to listen, becoming an interesting blasting story. so the storyteller will get all the world attention on him.....
_________________________
"The human heart feel things the eyes cannot see, and knows what the mind cannot understand"

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#29690 - 22 Feb 06 11:23 Re: Freedom of Speech
lucille_ball Offline
Member+

Registered: 02 Feb 06
Posts: 38
Loc: Jakarta
i'd have the same situation like you laluna, where my friend who is a devoted moslem mention that what if the situation is the other way around. sometimes i wonder what happen if jesus are being mocked like that.

and as for PB what is "freedom of speech. LMAO"
what is LMAO means. sorry if i don't quite followed it smile

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#29691 - 22 Feb 06 11:24 Re: Freedom of Speech
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by laluna:
"FREEDOM OF SPEECH"

is it not also just a minor form freedom of speech?
Everyone, can say whatever, whenever, bla, bla, bla, bla
NO - Today a man is in PRISON for saying something that a group of people dont like, and he said it 12 YEARS ago.

I do not agree with what he said, but I do not agree that he should go to jail for saying it.

this is DISGUSTING!

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#29692 - 22 Feb 06 11:26 Re: Freedom of Speech
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by lucille_ball:

what is LMAO means. sorry if i don't quite followed it smile
Laugh My Ass Off smile

There are LOTS of cartoons about Jesus published in Western newspapers. Christians dont really care. a few old ladies write to the newspapaper. no one dies, no one throws rocks....

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#29693 - 22 Feb 06 11:29 Re: Freedom of Speech
Lulu Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 19 Feb 06
Posts: 2226
Loc: Indonesia
I don't think the timing makes any different. What you've said, it's said, what you've done, it's done.

But I also not agree he should go to jail for what he said
_________________________
"The human heart feel things the eyes cannot see, and knows what the mind cannot understand"

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#29694 - 22 Feb 06 11:35 Re: Freedom of Speech
airwire Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Nov 05
Posts: 111
Loc: PL
PB have youever been to Aushwitz?...I'll recomend everone who doubts that there was holocoust to go to Oswiecim (polish name of Aushwitz) and feel the spirit of that city. Believe me there is still something of that hatred. And when you will enter to that museum you will see what I mean. No doubts its a black chapter in human history.

Laluna...Muhammad is not a prophet from bible..believe me:) noone mention Him in the Bible. And even if there will be cartoon with Jesus believe there wont be such roits like in muslim countries. Thats a weaknes of western society that they are stoping care about their heritage and history.
_________________________
-<-I Airwire

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#29695 - 22 Feb 06 11:36 Re: Freedom of Speech
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
12 years ago I said I loved my wife. Arrest me for telling lies. smile smile smile

12 years ago i said I hated Asians. Arrest me for being racist smile smile smile

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#29696 - 22 Feb 06 11:43 Re: Freedom of Speech
Lulu Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 19 Feb 06
Posts: 2226
Loc: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally posted by Polar Bear:
Quote:
Originally posted by lucille_ball:

what is LMAO means. sorry if i don't quite followed it smile
Laugh My Ass Off smile

There are LOTS of cartoons about Jesus published in Western newspapers. Christians dont really care. a few old ladies write to the newspapaper. no one dies, no one throws rocks....
shoot bear! I want to tell LB what is LMAO means! but you told her already.....

Yes, true, there's lots of cartoon about Jesus out there. And i never give a damn about it.
LB, do you remember the book "da vinci code by dan brown"? some chritian friends open a discussion about it, whether is true, whether is just fiction, how is going to affect our faith as christian, what is your opinion...bla,bla,bla
me? i read it, i slept on it, never show up in the discussion, the next monday morning i still go to the church.
_________________________
"The human heart feel things the eyes cannot see, and knows what the mind cannot understand"

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#29697 - 22 Feb 06 11:51 Re: Freedom of Speech
Lulu Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 19 Feb 06
Posts: 2226
Loc: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally posted by airwire:
Laluna...Muhammad is not a prophet from bible..believe me:) noone mention Him in the Bible. [/QB]
as far as i know, there is, but in the bible it doesn't call Muhammad, different name. Like Jesus in Alquran, they call Him, Isa.
_________________________
"The human heart feel things the eyes cannot see, and knows what the mind cannot understand"

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#29698 - 22 Feb 06 11:57 Re: Freedom of Speech
airwire Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Nov 05
Posts: 111
Loc: PL
Laluna...Last book from Bible was written lets say around 100 years after Christ birth...Muhamad was lining around 600 years after Christ. And believe me it would be against christian doctriny to have prophet after Jesus. If you dont believe you can always read whole Bible...or at least New Testament:)
_________________________
-<-I Airwire

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#29699 - 22 Feb 06 12:01 Re: Freedom of Speech
Lulu Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 19 Feb 06
Posts: 2226
Loc: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally posted by airwire:
Laluna...Last book from Bible was written lets say around 100 years after Christ birth...Muhamad was lining around 600 years after Christ. And believe me it would be against christian doctriny to have prophet after Jesus. If you dont believe you can always read whole Bible...or at least New Testament:)
Okay... smile Perhaps I was wrong.
But what can i say, I love all holly men and women. Muhammad, Christ, Budha...etc etc etc laugh
_________________________
"The human heart feel things the eyes cannot see, and knows what the mind cannot understand"

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#29700 - 22 Feb 06 12:04 Re: Freedom of Speech
Lulu Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 19 Feb 06
Posts: 2226
Loc: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally posted by Polar Bear:
12 years ago I said I loved my wife. Arrest me for telling lies. smile smile smile

12 years ago i said I hated Asians. Arrest me for being racist smile smile smile
LOL.... smile smile

At least you stop telling lies to your wife...
People change, heart change, and sometimes you think you know who you are but you have no idea.
Ever watch movie "crash"?
_________________________
"The human heart feel things the eyes cannot see, and knows what the mind cannot understand"

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#29701 - 22 Feb 06 12:08 Re: Freedom of Speech
airwire Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Nov 05
Posts: 111
Loc: PL
Peace to you:)
but remeber it has impact on your eternity:)
anyway..im going sleep...yaawnnn...bye
_________________________
-<-I Airwire

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#29702 - 22 Feb 06 12:15 Re: Freedom of Speech
Lulu Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 19 Feb 06
Posts: 2226
Loc: Indonesia
Peace to you too Airwire, and have a nice sleep.
Pray a little for me so my eternity will be a good one.... smile smile
_________________________
"The human heart feel things the eyes cannot see, and knows what the mind cannot understand"

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#29703 - 22 Feb 06 17:03 Re: Freedom of Speech
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by laluna:
Quote:
Originally posted by Polar Bear:
12 years ago I said I loved my wife. Arrest me for telling lies. smile smile smile

12 years ago i said I hated Asians. Arrest me for being racist smile smile smile
LOL.... smile smile

At least you stop telling lies to your wife...
People change, heart change, and sometimes you think you know who you are but you have no idea.
Ever watch movie "crash"?
No I havent seen Crash. any good?

I really was a racist.... Seems so crazy now.

I did an MBA. i had to do group work with lot of Asians. They were SUCH cool dudes. Clever and funny. After I left my wife I had 134 Asian gf.........

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#29704 - 22 Feb 06 17:52 Re: Freedom of Speech
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
WOOOW, 134 Asian GF..... how lucky number that you have smile so have you spread your "vanila" too on each of those "eggs" wink
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#29705 - 22 Feb 06 17:54 Re: Freedom of Speech
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I worked hard...... No sleep, hard to remember names, so I call them all PUMPKIN...

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#29706 - 22 Feb 06 18:14 Re: Freedom of Speech
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
And I call you "Big White Smooth Furry Hair" smile
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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