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#29650 - 01 Mar 06 06:34 The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
One of the nicest things about Jakarta was that it always had a laid-back attitude to life. Although a majority of the people were Muslim, other religions and other lifestyles were tolerated.

I had the fortune to visit Iran a couple of times before the fall of the Shah, and there was a remarkably similar attitude to life. All that changed of course, with the advent of hardline fundamental Islam under Ayatollah Khomeini. The country changed dramatically in a very short period of time, going from one of the most liberal countries in the Middle East to absolute hardline lunacy. Within months the American embassy had been seized and hostages were taken.

I am beginning to see the same lunacy developing in Jakarta, and indeed throughout Indonesia.

• In recent years Indonesia has become a target for radical Islamists, who are trying to remove the secular state, and replace it with Sharia Law. They have already succeeded in Ache, where the law has been in place since early 2000, and public canings for transgressors are not uncommon.

• Two other West Java Regencies, Cianju and Tasikmalaya, have started new ‘familiarisation” of Sharia Law this month. This involves “educating” women on the need to wear headscarves in public etc. It also requires proof of knowledge of the Koran for successful high school graduation.

• This process of “Sharia by Stealth” is now picking up speed. In Bandung, about 3 hours out of Jakarta, 25 Christian Churches have been forced to close in the last year. In Tangerang, a satellite city of Jakarta, the local government have just banned the sale of food during Prayer times on Friday.

• In Batam, the police have this month started approaching girls in short skirts and warning them about dressing ‘provocatively”. They are also attempting to force shops to stop selling the clothing.

• In Jakarta itself, the sale of alcohol in supermarkets is now forbidden by new laws introduced late last year.

• Brothels, massage parlours and bars are constantly being raided by the police, always accompanied by members of the Islamic Defenders Front (who themselves in turn are accompanied by Middle Eastern gentlemen). Girls are taken away for “re-education”. They are required to spend up to 3 months in jail, and pay large fines.

The latest move, a new national law expected to be passed in June, introduces far reaching restrictions. Couples who kiss in public can be sentenced to five years in jail. All “tight” or “revealing” womens clothing is banned. Anyone wearing a short skirt, tight jeans or exposing a midriff can expect being hauled away for “re-education”, or face 5 years in jail.

These laws apply to all people, not just Muslims, and apply to all of Indonesia, including Bali. Any Australian girl wearing a bikini on a beach risks time in a Balinese jail. Any Australian man who kisses his wife on a street in Bali can expect up to 5 years in a foreign jail.

Indonesia is not my country. I have no right to comment upon the laws, or upon the behaviour of its citizens. I have of course the right not to visit the country, not to invest in it, not to trade with it, or to petition my government to take steps to ensure that the changing attitudes in Indonesia and do not affect my lifestyle in Australia. If that means restricting Indonesian access to Australia, then so be it.

But the big question is do you really want to live that lifestyle? Do you want to be publicly claimed for not wearing a headscarf in public? Do you want to be arrested and spend three months in jail for wearing a skirt 50 centimetres above your knee? Or for wearing tight jeans/

Before you write this off as the rantings of the crazy man, reread my opening paragraph. If you had told me in the mid-1970s that girls in Iran would be jailed for not for wearing a short skirt or caned for not wearing a headscarf I would have laughed at you! By 1981 this was normal behaviour.

Do you really want it in Jakarta?

and who mkes the laws in Indonesia - Indonesian voters, or the strange Middle Eastern gentlemen who seem to control the Isalmic Defenders Front?

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#29651 - 01 Mar 06 06:43 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
D'ruby Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 13 Feb 06
Posts: 2177
Loc: My
It's crazy, even kissing your spouse can get in jail? I would have married bule and get out from here soon smile
_________________________
I wanna be Samantha, but I am so Carrie

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#29652 - 01 Mar 06 07:07 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Yes Ruby, and the sad thing is that it is ARABS who are forcing this law in. ARABS from the Middle East advise the Islamic Defenders Front on how to bring Sharia law into Indonesia.

then, when Indonesia is a mess, they will leave.

Who controls Indonesia, the Indonesian people or a bunch of bloody ARABS???????

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#29653 - 01 Mar 06 07:20 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Dilli Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Having lived in the Middle East for 18 years, I think in fairness that it should be made clear that it is a minority of individuals who try to cast their will over the masses. Ironically, they are not happy when they have achieved what they want in their own society, they feel that it is necessasry to impose their will in all societies, whether these societies want them or not.
_________________________
Menace to Sobriety


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#29654 - 01 Mar 06 07:33 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Dilli - I fully agree. Unfortunately there is a tendency in Islamic society to just accept whatever a vocal minority want. By the time the population of Iran woke up to what was happening the dreaded Savak had been replaced with an even more dreaded
Religious Police. Since the 1979 Islamic revolution, Iran's laws say all young women must wear the veil and a long coat that conceals their figures, or face fines or even imprisonment.

The same thing is about to happen in Indonesia – unless the people of Indonesia say NO! Its time to throw this bunch of assholes out of your country!!!!!!

The same bunch of assholes are also in Australia. But we have started throwing them out, or even jailing them. It is time Indonesia did the same!

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#29655 - 01 Mar 06 07:37 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
As you can see below, the same lunatics want Sharia Law here in Australia. if Irfan Yusef thinks he is going to get Sharia Law here he is making a VERY big mistake.

A soulless distortion of Islamic law
March 1, 2006

The true spirit of sharia is closer to our values than its harsh image suggests, writes Irfan Yusef.

Advertisement
AdvertisementMEDIA outlets have bombarded us with statements from people claiming to represent Australia's diverse Muslim groups, expressing dismay and disgust at last week's comments by the Federal Treasurer, Peter Costello. I initially agreed with them, until I read Costello's speech. The first four pages were fairly innocuous. But what sent the scribes, pundits and some Muslim leaders scurrying were the final two pages of comments on sharia and citizenship.

Costello said that anyone who believes sharia can co-exist with Australian law and Australian values should leave the country. The Prime Minister, John Howard, described his comments as fundamentally accurate. What both fail to see is that if Costello's formulation of Australian values is correct, it might mean all of us have to find a new homeland.

Costello says most migrants become Australian citizens because they want to embrace the things this country stands for. He lists six core Australian values, including economic opportunity, security, democracy and personal freedom.

In 2002, a visiting Indonesian academic lawyer delivered a series of lectures under the auspices of the Centre for Independent Studies. Professor Mohammad Fajrul Falaakh is a vice-dean of the Gadjah Mada University, among the top 100 universities in the world. Falaakh is also a senior figure in the Council of Theologians, or Nahdatul Ulama, the world's largest Islamic organisation.

In the annual CIS Acton Lecture, on the topic of sharia and pluralism in Indonesia, Falaakh listed five basic values of sharia, agreed on by sharia scholars from all schools of Islamic law. If one compares the five principles of sharia to the six values espoused by Costello, one finds they are virtually identical. Perhaps this is what Australian imams mean when they state in their sermons that Australia is a more Islamic country than most Muslim-majority states.

But this should be of no surprise. After all, sharia is not the name of a draconian system of legal punishments. It is not a synonym for amputations and beheadings. Rather, sharia is a legal tradition, a set of legal principles based on certain values. And those values are identical to those expressed in the Old and New Testaments.

Further, legal scholars in the East and West agree that the traditions of sharia, English common law (from which our legal systems are derived) and European civil law have borrowed from, and influenced, each other.

Some commentators present sharia as a system of medieval criminal punishments. But for Australian Muslims, sharia represents little more than ethics (honesty, enterprise) and liturgy (how to perform prayers, weddings, funerals). Costello's comments on sharia are, in effect, an attack on liturgy that should concern followers of all faiths.

Indeed, Costello's comments about those seeking to establish sharia in Australia do not go far enough. What he should have said was that those seeking to establish only sharia (outward liturgy) without its spirit (inner liturgy or the spirit of the law) should find another country and another religion.

Christ castigated rabbis who followed the letter, but ignored the spirit, of sacred law. Muslims believe the sharia to be an updated version of the same law, the outer manifestation of the same Abrahamic values. However, this must exist in tandem with an inner manifestation - given a variety of labels by Muslims and commonly known in the West as sufism.

A minority of Muslims seek to establish sharia without sufism across the world. They are the source of virtually all terrorist groups in the Muslim world. Their theology is regarded by mainstream Muslims as isolationist and fringe. They distort sharia by imposing it on people without the inner discipline of sufism. They are openly hostile to sufi tradition.

These people seek to destroy Islam from within. They are arguably more of a threat to Muslims than non-Muslims. Hence, the majority of their victims are Muslims. Costello would like to see such people leave Australia. Most Muslims, on the other hand, would prefer to see these people leave our planet.

These people distort our perceptions about sharia. Most Australians regard sharia as purely consisting of draconian medieval punishments. Costello's own inaccurate comments about sharia are a manifestation of distorted perceptions.

Irfan Yusef is a lawyer.

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#29656 - 01 Mar 06 07:59 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
jamitaja Offline
Member

Registered: 01 Mar 06
Posts: 7
Loc: JakSel
Hi everyone. I'm new in this forum but I like this topic.
To me forcing the islamic laws to all people in Indonesia regardless their religions shows how weak and ignorant the government is in protecting its people.

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#29657 - 01 Mar 06 08:12 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
jamitaja Offline
Member

Registered: 01 Mar 06
Posts: 7
Loc: JakSel
I can see some greedy people has been acheiving their goals from ruining Indonesia.

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#29658 - 01 Mar 06 08:25 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
Too true PB. I have indeed gone back to examine what Costello actually saying. In the end he was both right and wrong. And I agree with your assesment.

As I said before, this is not so much about religion per se, it is more of a certain minority group wanting to impose on their interpretation of the scripts (whatever that may be) to the masses.

People do forget their history, don't they? History repeats itself.

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#29659 - 01 Mar 06 09:20 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I agree g00f13, this has very very little to do with religion, but is about poeple who are determined to impose their way of life (in some cases how they interpret a religion).

It is the same fanatacism that made people fry to force communism across the world. In every case comunism failed, mainly because the people didnt want it.

you have to persuade people, not force them!

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#29660 - 01 Mar 06 09:47 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Quote:
Originally posted by Polar Bear:
I agree g00f13, this has very very little to do with religion, but is about poeple who are determined to impose their way of life (in some cases how they interpret a religion).

It is the same fanatacism that made people fry to force communism across the world. In every case comunism failed, mainly because the people didnt want it.

you have to persuade people, not force them!
I go with you PB, I was shocked to read your article above (at first) I mean is it? Indonesia or Jakarta will gonna be like this later? It sound so selfish, I think this society more Arabian than Arab itself, its scary.And I agree too with Mr. President of Indonesia on The two-day seminar, organized by the Indonesian Crime Prevention Foundation yesterday he said "terror groups generally are bent on using politically sensitive issues to their advantage.
"They want to radicalize our society, undermine our values, destabilize our community ... this is the best situation for them. We must not lose this battle,".
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#29661 - 01 Mar 06 09:59 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
So what is the difference between Radicalism, Fundamentalism, Communism?

Nothing, different doctrine, same attitude.

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#29662 - 01 Mar 06 10:09 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Yes, all three groups - radicals, fundamentals and communists, put their ideals above the wishes of the people.

They force their ideas onto a population in the misguided belief that they know what is best for the people.

They forget that a society is a group of people with common aims, ideals and beliefs (social beliefs rather than religious ones). The people MUST decide how they will live.

In a variation of the old saying – “I may not like how you live your life, but I defend your right to live that way”.

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#29663 - 01 Mar 06 10:15 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
jamitaja Offline
Member

Registered: 01 Mar 06
Posts: 7
Loc: JakSel
Quote:
Originally posted by Macan tutul:
Quote:
Originally posted by Polar Bear:
I agree g00f13, this has very very little to do with religion, but is about poeple who are determined to impose their way of life (in some cases how they interpret a religion).

It is the same fanatacism that made people fry to force communism across the world. In every case comunism failed, mainly because the people didnt want it.

you have to persuade people, not force them!
I go with you PB, I was shocked to read your article above (at first) I mean is it? Indonesia or Jakarta will gonna be like this later? It sound so selfish, I think this society more Arabian than Arab itself, its scary.And I agree too with Mr. President of Indonesia on The two-day seminar, organized by the Indonesian Crime Prevention Foundation yesterday he said "terror groups generally are bent on using politically sensitive issues to their advantage.
"They want to radicalize our society, undermine our values, destabilize our community ... this is the best situation for them. We must not lose this battle,".

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#29664 - 01 Mar 06 10:18 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by Macan tutul:
I mean is it? Indonesia or Jakarta will gonna be like this later?
I honestly dont know MT. I hope not!

BUT - I saw Iran change in 2 years, from being something like indonesia, to something worse that afganistan. women beaten for not wearing a headscarf. Women stoned to death for having sex before marriage.....

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#29665 - 01 Mar 06 10:20 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by jamitaja:
To me forcing the islamic laws to all people in Indonesia regardless their religions shows how weak and ignorant the government is in protecting its people.
weak government, weak civil institutions, weak communities. all these can be exploited by power-oriented fanatics of every persuasion to impose foreign ideologies onto Indonesians.
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#29666 - 01 Mar 06 10:30 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Article 83 of the Iranian Penal Code, called the Law of Hodoud, stipulates that the penalty for fornication is flogging, i.e. 100 strokes of the lash, for unmarried male and female offenders.19

Article 102 of Iran’s Constitution indicates: "Women who appear on streets and in public without the prescribed ‘Islamic Hejab’ will be condemned to 74 strokes of the lash.”26

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#29667 - 01 Mar 06 10:40 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
Do you know that since the Taliban was ousted, women in Afganistan can now walk in front of their men? Unfortunately this only came about because of landmines.

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#29668 - 01 Mar 06 10:51 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
airwire Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Nov 05
Posts: 111
Loc: PL
PB I just hope that your impression about things going on Indonesia are wrong. But aparently there is something going on in wrong direction. I hope citizens of Indonesia will see this soon, especially those so called "moderate muslims". You have to wake up and persuade to other fanatics...dont be passive now,later on could be too late..like its now in Iran.
_________________________
-<-I Airwire

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#29669 - 01 Mar 06 10:55 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
It doesnt really bother me if Indonesia becomes a fundametalist Islamic state, but i have a lot of friends who will have to change their lifestyles or leave the country...

I hope common sense will prevail.

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#29670 - 01 Mar 06 11:59 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
jamitaja Offline
Member

Registered: 01 Mar 06
Posts: 7
Loc: JakSel
I hope common sense will prevail. [/QB][/QUOTE]

It's a very long way to go mate! I have little confidence in the present government or the people who call themselves the government.

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#29671 - 01 Mar 06 12:22 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Well if common sense does not prevail in the next 4 months then Indonesia as we know it will go for good.

I know that everyone thinks that typical police inaction, incompetence and corruption will allow things to go on as normal, with or without the new laws.

However, remember 3 things:

1. In Batam, the police have already started clamping down on girls who dress ‘provocatively”.

2. Some of the clubs and brothels/massage parlours that have been raided in the last two months pay BIG money to corrupt officials. The 5+1 in the Malawai Hotel had NEVER been raided before. Now THIRTY girls are in jail and the place is closed. The bars in Blok M that had always been left alone (MyBar, Ds Place etc) have now been raided and a lot of girls taken away. Rumour has it that these girls are in jail. They were arrested just for being in a Blok M bar.

3. Most importantly – this is NOT Indonesian police you are dealing with. It is the Islamic Defenders Front, and its mysterious Arabic friends. They are the ones giving the police the orders. You see them hanging around every police raid. And if the police don’t get stuck in, the Islamic Defenders Front start giving the police orders.

The IDF don’t take bribes, they are not lazy, not stupid and not corrupt. They are fanatics. They will pull any girl off the street and push her into jail just for wearing a skirt above the knee.

If this law gets passed by parliament the Indonesia you know will be gone for ever.

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#29672 - 01 Mar 06 12:31 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Quote:
Originally posted by Polar Bear:
Yes, all three groups - radicals, fundamentals and communists, put their ideals above the wishes of the people.

They force their ideas onto a population in the misguided belief that they know what is best for the people.

They forget that a society is a group of people with common aims, ideals and beliefs (social beliefs rather than religious ones). The people MUST decide how they will live.

In a variation of the old saying – “I may not like how you live your life, but I defend your right to live that way”.
Yup PB, and it goes to
Sometimes the other people who have the same faith but have different mind and tough or organization or economic class has same treat too, the sacred of faith ritual which promises lots of merit, sometimes be understandings as a seldom chance to get and been race make social limits gets harder and rude which be sure promising lots and bigger merit.And what if this country become or they want to make this country to be Afghanistan? So there is no freeedom for us, women as a person, too get better chance and life, what if to be like that? We're "forbidden" for education, informations, news, even radio or entertainment, its just like back to the Stone Age.
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#29673 - 01 Mar 06 12:37 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
The most hypocritical thing in this whole process are the men who push the agendas may have extra marital affairs, mistresses, spent way too many taxpayers time and money on Internet porn sites and then gone home and abuse their wives.

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#29674 - 01 Mar 06 12:41 Re: The End of Indonesia as you know it...
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
There are just as many crazy Christian people in the world.

When I lived in England bars had different opening hours on Sundays, so that people could not drink when they should be in church. At one time you could not have "live music" on Sundays, shops could not open on Sundays etc.

This was Christian fanatics pushing STUPID laws onto everyone.

All religious fanatics should be shot!

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