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#29312 - 15 Mar 06 17:03 Jihad or martyrdom
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Ladies and gentleman, first of all, I want to say with all my respect this is not, insulting or treating or any kind, I just want to discuss and need your opinion about this, and I think it’s a free chat so we can talk and share our thoughts right and Kuku I hope its ok…
Well we all know about Jihad (martyrdom) and I found this …..
The Group of Khawarij and Assassin is one example the beginning of unholy war in the name of Islam, they separated and build their own community, this group have believes, Koran commands do fighting all the badness in Allah’s way must be done with reality, hard and unconditionally or exception, they divided this world in two between faith or believe/unbeliever, Moslem and non-Moslem, war and peace, any kind of things and done which not properly with their law is a big sin or deserved to death punishment, the sinner had guilty because their unbelief or godlessness so they’ll to slip away and this big sinner seems as a unbeliever, traitor and deserve to death punishment if they don’t repent or regret.

This group saw the other Moslem who wont accepted their thinking has considered for this compromise as unbeliever and enemy of God, a caliph/leader supposedly chosen by group agreement but they’re mutually persistent in defending their heart and viewpoints that a leader only can occupies as long as he’s still and like their mind and not a sinner. If he slide from this condition so it was a big sin and recognized as a Islam denial, free from Islam law protection and he must be degrade and being kill.
With faith they’re God’s soldiers whose fighting evil strength, they consider their purpose must be reach with any kind of matter, violence, warfare and revolution not only legal, the sinner who doesn’t mind of God’s wants and sovereignty, this duplicated of mental or attitude could we found in a modern way right now for Jihad group, the killers of Egypt President…Anwar Sadat, Osama Bin Laden and the other extremist who had proclaim overthrow the power of Moslem leader, who doesn’t Islamic and jihad against the West.

Any kind of opinion open and sorry for my poor English……………
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#29313 - 16 Mar 06 06:30 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
History needs to be viewed from shifting viewpoints, you cannot stick a pin in a calendar and judge events from that single point. We must look forward, and look backwards to truly see historical perspectives.

It is worth noting that the western world has changed dramatically in the last 40 years. Prior to Mary Quant introducing the miniskirt in 1964 no girl would show her knees in public. The birth control pill was unknown until 1967 . Promiscuity was almost unknown. Sexual freedom, particularly for women hardly existed. Few girls indulged in any form of sexual contact prior to getting engaged. Those that did quickly earned a bad reputation.

Despite current impressions, it is not Islam that has changed in the last 40 years but the West . It is therefore a little unfair to place all of the blame upon Islam. From the viewpoint of an elderly Islamic man the west has completely abandoned its civilized way of life. We of course see it quite differently. We see it as an enlightened age, the age of freedom and equality.

It is also worth noting that in the late 1880s British army officers and political officers were commonplace in countries like Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and Egypt.

The local population had no problems with these Englishmen because although Christian they had very similar societal values to the Islamic tribesmen. From today’s perspective they would be seen as chauvinistic prudes.

These Victorian gentlemen would have been Shocked by the sight of a girl in a bikini, or topless on a beach. They would have been affronted by a miniskirt, or the sight of a group of girls binge drinking in a bar.

They would not have tolerated the sexual freedoms currently enjoyed by Western females . In short the hardline fundamental Islamic man of today had more in common with a Victorian English gentleman than the vast majority of Englishmen today.

We need to remember this perspective when judging Islamic reactions to the West.

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#29314 - 16 Mar 06 06:39 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
In terms of specific local traditions, before colonial times in many Asian, African counties and the Americas, the amount of clothing articles these indigenous people wear were very minimal. And in remote parts, communal bath/shower were the norm.

The indigenous people were label savages by their colonial rulers.

How times have change.

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#29315 - 16 Mar 06 06:56 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
True. And if you go to some countries it still exists.

Zulu girls are presented to the King of Zululand for "virginity testing" wearing a very un-modest bead skirt and nothing else.

PNG girls still wear similar un-modest clothing.

In many Asian countries rural girls still bathe naked in the river, in full view of men. In rural Japan mixed hot baths still exist.

The point is that men are expected not to notice that the girls are naked. its a similar logic to topless girls on a Sydney beach. Everyone affects not to notice. To stare or take photos is considered rude.

I notice the same thing in my apartment complex (the C shape means that by looking right I see the harbour, by looking left I see the other side of the complex). Many Asian girls walk around naked with the curtains open. I see it on a daily basis. The girls expect me not to look.

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#29316 - 16 Mar 06 10:39 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Ena Offline
Member*

Registered: 26 Nov 05
Posts: 765
Loc: Sydney
kiss or kick?
jihad or martydom? hmm is there a pattern here???
_________________________
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=bIEOZCcaXzE

..take only what you need..

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#29317 - 16 Mar 06 10:53 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I don’t fully understand the difference between Jihad or holy war, and martyrdom which is a form of waging war.... The two are not mutually exclusive.

Make love not war! One is frightening, and involves a lot of banging and screaming. The other is war…..

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#29318 - 16 Mar 06 11:04 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Ok, PB thank you for your opinion and I really appreciated, and yes like I said before, its free and open comments and I’ll absorb any kind of comments…..ok maybe I should viewed from shifting viewpoints and I couldn’t not judge with one point, . “It is therefore a little unfair to place all of the blame upon Islam.” We must look forward, and look backwards to truly see historical perspectives. “
I’ll try to make it clear…..the founder and the spread of Islamic organizations in the whole world which purposed to change over for new atmosphere in their place/home; they’re activated of Jihad language to arouse ones spirit to a high pitch which needs in their struggle for reformation. Even so, as we would see later, who’s proclaim Jihad and what kind of condition for a defensive of Jihad legalization as the enemy from unholy war and aggressive will and as a beauty, decided by people who’s watching, Jihad will be and still be a concept to determine for ideologist who’s looking for, in the crisis era to use their tradition in a way back to power, peace and social justice to their community.How Islam and Jihad had definition again to use in this 21th century? Who’s take the important role to create and spread this ideas?

We don’t need to blame ones or the other religion or nation, as I look back to this country now, like you’ve said too women or girls now have freedom to wear what they want and follow the new modern fashion or drinking in bar etc…yes I realized that, that’s why I think this people (who claim to be believer) said with clearly that the girls whose wearing a half of clothes is kafir etc….and they don’t care and maybe pretending to be “blind” to not to see that this country is a multi ethnic and religion, we can’t force another province or religion wear what we want to wear, example head scarf, and this people said too, that PNG clothes and the other should be on museum!!! I’m so insulting and I can’t accepted for this, me example Iam Javanese girl, and I want to wear “Kebaya” or “Kemben” or traditional wedding dress “Basahan”, its from my chest to toe, and I’m proud to wearing it its my traditional clothes and one of the riches or culture property of this country just like the other Province, should I have arrest because of this?

That’s why guys I need your opinion about the word of Jihad itself and what kind of “mission”, I didn’t mean to be the truth ones or the good one, I want to share and discuss this with you.

Any kind of culture and traditional behaviors or clothes or the things itself, shouldn’t be damage by wants or interest for one nation, class, tribe and personal, we should respect each other and adopted for where we live, of course we still be our selves, we shouldn’t punish or blame and force the other to come with us.

But I think this people who struggle for pornography bills and pro, should see and listen from the other side and point, maybe this is right to announcement for this bills but the other side, if it make the other had harm, loss, victim, disintegration, and the death of culture as constraint, free of expression, and what kind of the country itself, we lived with the other people in around the world from different kind of things, so complex, even with our neighbor, and yes PB, and dear Goof you’re right “The indigenous people were label savages by their colonial rulers. How times have change”.
Please correction and add opinion…thank you
Well Jihad from Arabian languange as istisyhâd, and martyrdom is English version but they have the same meaning.
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#29319 - 16 Mar 06 11:12 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I am arguing the same subject elsewhere (on a much more esoteric site)
If you were to go back a handful of generations of Western history things are not quite so squeaky clean as they are today. Read the history of the slave trade in Africa, look at slave plantations in the west Indies, and look at Englishmen and Aborigines before 1900. Rape was endemic, beatings, torture and murder were a way of control. Murder of Aborigines did not constitute a crime until the late 1880s, and even then it was seldom classed as a crime. Similar attitudes existed in Africa until the same time.

We put promiscuous women into mental homes for the rest of their lives. And behind all of this were a bunch of vicars and Priests. Just like behind Islam there are a bunch of imams.

In the confession box the local Catholic Priest would wank himself off whilst telling the local Magistrate “young Mary Jones has been sleeping with the boys again. You had better schedule her for being insane. We don’t want that sort of thing going on do we…….”

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#29320 - 16 Mar 06 11:40 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Of course PB, I don't wont that numpty thing going on, anyway maybe the Priest not wearing kecks that time, ah Mardy...Mardy...Mustard
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#29321 - 16 Mar 06 18:06 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
The words 'Jihad', 'Martyrdom' are just that. They are just words used by a small group of people to justify something they have interpreted to be the name of an object or act. It is just like naming a baby or building or song.

As I understand it, the words happen to have a very narrow meaning in Arabic. Now these people tried to stretch the meaning of the word to justify the act that they are going to conduct. IMHO, the conducts of these people are not religious at all. It has nothing to do with Islam. Imagine if it's started from other religions, the conducts would still not be considered religious in such a context. These people are trying to tie the word with Islam to justify it due to their background.

When you think about it, whose actually the God in their conducts? It is as if the leaders act as God themselves. The way that they choose and 'encourage' their followers to blow themselves up seems like an act of God to me. For example, Mr. A was asked to carry a mission, should the mission succeed, he'll go to heaven. Should he failed, he'll either be captured or when he returns he'll be shot dead. So, God has given authority to these people to conduct such a Godly act? I think not.

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#29322 - 16 Mar 06 18:27 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Ena Offline
Member*

Registered: 26 Nov 05
Posts: 765
Loc: Sydney
Yeah, I think your right goof.
none of us should presume to tell others what does god want for US. Life is to make the peace YOURSELF with the god I think.
And first and always do no harm!
_________________________
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=bIEOZCcaXzE

..take only what you need..

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#29323 - 16 Mar 06 18:41 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I agree Goof Man, but don’t make the mistake that such stupidity is confined to Islam. Christians in the past have faced death rather than change from Catholicism to Protestant. They say themselves as Martyrs.

One thing that the West fails to understand is the complex issue of how Islam is enforced in its “cradle” – the Middle East.

This is an area of total barbarity even today. Parking disputes are regularly settled with guns. Family disputes are settled with car bombs. Families originating in the Bekar valley of Lebanon control an amazing 60% of the worlds heroin trafficking.

One hundred years ago the area was known for being peopled by thieves and murderers. A man would have his throat slit for the coins in his pocket. To look at a girl would start a feud that would end in tribal war, with the death of hundreds. British soldiers in Afghanistan would shoot themselves rather than be taken prisoner, give the horrific death they would suffer at the hands of Afghan women.

These people see compassion as a weakness.

Given this background, it is hardly surprising that they enforce the spread of Islam in barbaric ways. If we don’t fight back – and I mean fight back against these Arabs rather than against Islam, we will find ourselves living in their world.

Unfortunately these savage Arabs have managed to export their lunacy to Indonesian. Behind the Islamic Defenders Front are a shadowy bunch of Arabs, funded out of Saudi and trained in Lebanon, Syria, and Afghanistan.

This is now a fight to the death, a fight the west will win. If Islam sides itself with these maniacs then we will destroy Islam as well. Islam MUST divorce itself from these bad men immediately, or Islam will be treated how we will treat these Arabs.

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#29324 - 16 Mar 06 19:07 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
One thing that I'd like to differ from PB is that I think Islam in general has been trying to divorce itself from the extremist who only use Islam as a vehicle. However this has not been helped by the media where generalisation exist in Islam = terrorist. The fact also not lost on the instigator themselves (read: the extremist). They use the media to fuel the situation.

Take MT (who I believe is a muslim) for example (I have other muslim friends who are in the same predicament as MT), in her original posting, I sense that she is somewhat frustrated by the situation. On the one hand she is a muslim (and a good one I believe), on the other hand her religion has been depicted as other than what she always believes to be. I don't think she wants to be associated with those people. And I don't think majority of muslims want to be associated with those people.

However their voice (if any) has been engulfed by the extremist. I think they are crying out for someone to take a stand on their behalf so that they have a voice, so that they can balance public opinions, so that they can tell the world who they are, what they believe. I think MT is crying out for a change.

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#29325 - 16 Mar 06 19:31 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
As I said - If Islam sides with these men, Islam will die with them.

the first real test is the new "Porno laws" in Indonesia. I think we are all in agreement that the force behind these laws is not Indonesians, but outside troublemakers - from the Middle East.

Remember - a nation is the sum of its people. if the people of Indonesia allow these new laws to be passed, the rest of the world will assume that the faniatics are in control....

And we all know that the new laws will get passed. So you have to be prepared for the rection of the West. Who the hell is going ot invest in indonesia if the lunatics make the laws....

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#29326 - 16 Mar 06 19:53 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
PB, too true mate.

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#29327 - 16 Mar 06 20:42 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
From todays Sydney morinig Herald.......

Eleven per cent of people in Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, believe suicide attacks against civilian targets are sometimes justifiable, a survey shows.

Though the number is relatively small, analysts say the findings of the Indonesian Survey Institute (LSI) are a wake-up call for Indonesian leaders and moderate clerics who fear a tiny radical Muslim fringe may be making inroads into the masses.

Suicide bombings using the flag of Islam have killed hundreds in recent years in Indonesia, a country whose population of 220 million population is around 85 per cent Muslim - most of them following a moderate form of the religion.

But the government has been working to weed out militant Islamic ideas since the discovery of videos last November showing the last words of suicide bombers who killed 20 people in restaurants on Bali last year.

Authorities and moderate clerics were shocked that young Indonesians could talk so blithely about the horrific bombings.

"Religious radicalism, when it is translated into violent methods in the name of religion, has received enough support - one in every 10 Muslims in Indonesia, LSI senior researcher Anies Baswedan said.

"It seems small, but this is already quite big support for extreme acts."

The survey, based on 1,200 respondents across Indonesia's 33 provinces, showed 11.2 per cent believed suicide bombings were justifiable on occasion while 0.5 per cent said the method could always be justified to defend Islam from its enemies.

The survey also revealed that eight per cent support masterminds of past suicide bombings, including Noordin Top, the most wanted terrorist suspect in Indonesia, who authorities say is an expert in recruiting young suicide bombers among the country's impoverished masses.

Police believe Top, a key operative of the al-Qaeda linked Jemaah Islamiah militant network, is on the run in rural areas of Indonesia's main Java island.

Anti-terror campaigns in Indonesia have faced hurdles, including perceptions that the United States is out to attack Islam as well as the ample space given to militant voices and their sympathisers in the Indonesian media.

More recently, efforts to uproot radical Islam have been set back by anger over cartoons that lampooned the Prophet Mohammed, first published by a Danish newspaper.

© 2006 Reuters, Click for Restrictions

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#29328 - 16 Mar 06 20:55 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by Polar Bear:
From todays Sydney morinig Herald.......

Eleven per cent of people in Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, believe suicide attacks against civilian targets are sometimes justifiable, a survey shows.
only 11%?! i'd like to know how they got their sample... any survey conducted in indonesia has to be treated with a great deal of scepticism; it's an extremely difficult demographic environment. it's not homogenous like, say, australian society, (despite multicultural pretentions, australia is a monoculture).
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#29329 - 16 Mar 06 21:12 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
And it overlooks the tendancy Asians have to say what they think the interviewer wants them to say.

However, it must indicate some sort of feeling within society, which in itself is worrying...

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#29330 - 17 Mar 06 06:47 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
g00f13 Offline
Member*

Registered: 12 Nov 05
Posts: 739
Loc: earth
Where the dollar is put in front of the would be suicide bomber, is there any cause to refuse?

I have heard a credible story about the recuiter coming around into remote area in Java where through his smooth modus operandi, he was able to easily convince the recruitees to join him for some religious teaching. And this was where promises were thrown at the recruitees.

Later it was revealed that dollars were thrown about to solidify his recruitment drive. The recruitees were simply poor village unemployed. Any amount of money would have easily converted these people into believing something good will come out of this.

Now, to me, this is not envangelising Islam to the masses, this is simply guns for hire.

Now in regards to the survey, it would have been conducted via telephone. The demographic of phone owning households would have been quite narrow in Indo. And that's worrying, due to the fact that middle income earners and above would have been included in the survey. These are the more educated bunch. Any percentage from these group should have a sign for the govt. to take note.

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#29331 - 17 Mar 06 09:01 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
The problem with understanding it is he sheer size of the population of Indonesia, and its diversity.

I have never once felt unsafe in Jakarta, despite taking a lot of risks. but no doubt there are a few bad people there....

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#29332 - 17 Mar 06 11:42 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Yes PB, you’re right, we should fight back and separate from this radicalisms, they use religion as a shield or “gun” to their purposed and their interpretation, no one religion in this world, even the holy book, or God itself, teaching harm ness the other, this radicalism was hidden behind religion and when they against the war or bombing itself, they call it in the name of religion, that was one thing should be clear and need to be straight. It is not the religion but the people itself. And not only about bombing itself, one thing in Islam that a man can have wife more than 4 wife as long as he’s fair and kind to each other (and yes it has happened long time ago too) but this condition has been using and misunderstanding by this extremist or some of them (not only extremist) to marry lots of women become their wife and build “harem”.

Dear Goofy, you’re right too, yes I’m convince, I’m frustration about this situation, because of this “hard interpretation” that Moslem was bad and Islam goes too and what media shows and tell etc, some of or part of Moslem people who’s not and not followed this radicalism just like got the induction, some for the people who understand after I explained to them what the reality and the truth, they could understand but for people who don’t? And because of this too lots of sectors of living become obstacle not just economics and politics maybe love or relationship too. And yes we want really want to make it clear, that Islam its not radicalism religion, and not all of Moslem people was bad, is just the act from savage people who wearing “mask” and hidden behind Islam, and fortunately this radicalism is part of Moslem people. Of course I don’t want and never associated with those people, and I believe God always give forgiveness for those who want to regret and not teaching harm each other.

Again I do with you, yes CHANGE, CLEARNESS, AND GOODNESS, which was I want to hear, we all tired with terror and blood from innocent people, we need live in a peacefull mind.

guys you’re absolutely right about the requites

“I have heard a credible story about the recuiter coming around into remote area in Java where through his smooth modus operandi, he was able to easily convince the recruitees to join him for some religious teaching. And this was where promises were thrown at the recruitees.

Later it was revealed that dollars were thrown about to solidify his recruitment drive. The recruitees were simply poor village unemployed. Any amount of money would have easily converted these people into believing something good will come out of this.

Now, to me, this is not envangelising Islam to the masses, this is simply guns for hire.”

And they’re the easy target become their soldiers, their bands its called “cuci otak secara besar-besaran”.

“I have never once felt unsafe in Jakarta, despite taking a lot of risks. But no doubt there are a few bad people there....”

Good PB, if you feel like that when you’re here, and yes there are a few bad people here and anywhere where we live and stay. And about the porno itself I think it depends on what each other mind, perception and situation.
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#29333 - 17 Mar 06 12:01 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
And this is what I found from one of site :

In Indonesia, the terrorist’s motive is unclear. However, I disagree with suicide bombing based on any motive, since its precedent cannot be found in Islamic teaching and the life of Prophet.

the farewell video left by three Bali suicide bombers has shocked the traditional Muslim clerics in Indonesia. What do you see?
They were shocked because they do not know exactly about radical Islamic movements and ideologies. They have been percieving Islam as peaceful and tolerant teaching. No wonder they were upset watching them who believe suicide bombing as a road to heaven.
I think the message of Salik Firdaus, one of terrorists, “Dear my brother and wife, God willing, when you see this recording I'll already be in heaven" is a little bit ridiculous since heaven will exist only after the Judgment day. This indicates his shallow perception on religion.

Do the Indonesian Muslims become more radical and then determined to perform suicide bombing?

I don’t think so. Only few of them have the courage to do that. It is just a global trend which started from their involvement in Afghanistan and so on. But the motive of suicide bombing in Indonesia differs to the Middle East where there is a strong affinity between the activist and public. Here, they get no support and public have no idea why they want to do it.
However, the terrorist’s propaganda works well. Youths having shallow religious knowledge were encouraged by dreams to enter heaven through a short-cut, in this case by performing suicide bombing as istisyhâd, death in a martyr’s way. In fact they were ignorant and influenced by global Islamic propaganda based on various political factors.

How to distinguish between al-istisyhâd (martyrdom) and suicide bombing?

Well, I think suicide bombing does not reflect the Islamic ethic. A Muslim, who seeks istisyhâd (martyrdom) in the battlefield, must defend himself and attempt to survive.

Suicide bombing is not justified in Islam because Muslim has to survive and honor the human life. Furthermore, Allah has said in Quran (al-Maidah 5: 32) “whosoever killed a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and who saved the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind”. The Prophet also condemned intihâr or suicide. In a hadits qudsy, Allah said that “anyone committed suicide shall be as if he did not accept My destiny.”

The suicide bombers do not understand that there are better and more rational ways to achieve their objective. Besides, their objectives are unreasonable at all. How could they fight against US, as they claimed, by killing people in Bali?


Will this trend of suicide bombing end two or three years ahead?

It depends on the response of public and ulema. At present, they maybe astonished by the guts of terrorist to commit suicide and kill. But if the ulema explain that such jihad is mistaken, this trend will not extend.

What should be the role of religion and religionist in order to decrease the terrorist conception?

In the end, we have to turn religion back to its proper position. I am hoping for the ulema’s concern and courage to talk about terrorism although sometimes there are not reliable. In the New Order era for instance, no ulema raise their voice against corruption. And now, all of them pay their attention upon this issue and raise their voice against it.
I think, they will raise their voice later on when this issue is over and the terrorist defeated. At the moment, many ulema refuse to be involved in anti-terror team as they have no courage to talk about the truth. However, we still hope that they will made Islam to be perceived as the true religion and blessing for the universe.
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#29334 - 17 Mar 06 15:52 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Ena Offline
Member*

Registered: 26 Nov 05
Posts: 765
Loc: Sydney
(despite multicultural pretentions, australia is a monoculture). ( quoted from kukuh)
Governed by a guy with a monobrow..
Wah!!! Its catching-I ve got one too!
_________________________
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=bIEOZCcaXzE

..take only what you need..

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#29335 - 17 Mar 06 16:46 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
Black Adder Offline
Member

Registered: 13 Mar 06
Posts: 29
Loc: Home
Quote:
Originally posted by Polar Bear:
From todays Sydney morinig Herald.......

Eleven per cent of people in Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, believe suicide attacks against civilian targets are sometimes justifiable, a survey shows.

Though the number is relatively small, analysts say the findings of the Indonesian Survey Institute (LSI) are a wake-up call for Indonesian leaders and moderate clerics who fear a tiny radical Muslim fringe may be making inroads into the masses.

Suicide bombings using the flag of Islam have killed hundreds in recent years in Indonesia, a country whose population of 220 million population is around 85 per cent Muslim - most of them following a moderate form of the religion.

But the government has been working to weed out militant Islamic ideas since the discovery of videos last November showing the last words of suicide bombers who killed 20 people in restaurants on Bali last year.

Authorities and moderate clerics were shocked that young Indonesians could talk so blithely about the horrific bombings.

"Religious radicalism, when it is translated into violent methods in the name of religion, has received enough support - one in every 10 Muslims in Indonesia, LSI senior researcher Anies Baswedan said.

"It seems small, but this is already quite big support for extreme acts."

The survey, based on 1,200 respondents across Indonesia's 33 provinces, showed 11.2 per cent believed suicide bombings were justifiable on occasion while 0.5 per cent said the method could always be justified to defend Islam from its enemies.

The survey also revealed that eight per cent support masterminds of past suicide bombings, including Noordin Top, the most wanted terrorist suspect in Indonesia, who authorities say is an expert in recruiting young suicide bombers among the country's impoverished masses.

Police believe Top, a key operative of the al-Qaeda linked Jemaah Islamiah militant network, is on the run in rural areas of Indonesia's main Java island.

Anti-terror campaigns in Indonesia have faced hurdles, including perceptions that the United States is out to attack Islam as well as the ample space given to militant voices and their sympathisers in the Indonesian media.

More recently, efforts to uproot radical Islam have been set back by anger over cartoons that lampooned the Prophet Mohammed, first published by a Danish newspaper.

© 2006 Reuters, Click for Restrictions
PB, Hope you are not getting cold feet about this fair country. Actually in the Jkt Post today on the front page was an article talking about the survey, I did not read too much about the survey itself but the wife and I discussed it and she said what she had seen on local TV was that the people surveyed were basically people who live outside of Jkt and have the equivilent schooling of 5th or 6th grade, thats all, that represents a large amount of the people surveyed. I have talked to a large number or Indonesian professionals here and they actually want a return of a semi-strong man like Suharto to come in and put his foot down and clean it up at least back to the level it was before so that the professional Foreign companies come back in.

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#29336 - 17 Mar 06 17:52 Re: Jihad or martyrdom
cherry Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 05
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