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#12634 - 29 Jul 06 18:14 Occams Razor
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
For those of you that dont know this philosophical concept, Occam's razor is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham. Originally a tenet of the reductionist philosophy of nominalism, it is more often taken today as a heuristic maxim that advises economy, parsimony, or simplicity in scientific theories. Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae (law of succinctness): entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem,
which translates to: entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.

Furthermore, when multiple competing theories have equal predictive powers, the principle recommends selecting those that introduce the fewest assumptions and postulate the fewest hypothetical entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.


Some poeple dont seem to accept this well known concept, but instead rely upon good old Indonesian bullshit, smoke and mirrors......

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#12635 - 30 Jul 06 10:37 Re: Occams Razor
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Now let me give you some examples of Occams razor in a Jakarta situation.

Your favourite watch it missing. Only you and the maid have access to your apartment. She denies ever seeing it. She is adamant that she didn’t take it.

You empty her bag, and out falls the watch. You make the mistake of asking how it got there. Occams razor says she took it, but she tells you someone took it and planted it there. The spirits took it. The spirits MADE her take it…..

Take a look at someone elses experience in this area:


http://bialoglowy.blogspot.com/2006/04/tale-of-mba-sri-and-missing-mobile.html
The Indonesian manner of never bothering to tell the truth if it doesn’t suit a situation requires frequent use of Friar Ockham and his theory.

Every bar girl I have ever had the pleasure of has ‘just started in the job” – despite every guy in the bar describing the tattoo on her ass in graphic detail…… Friar Ockham would tell you she has been pedalling pussy for years, but she says “they are just friend”…..

The problem is that Indonesians think that Bules are a bit stupid, and believe this rubbish…. We are not “full of negative thoughts”, we are not “cynical”, we are just open honest and have more than three brain cells that we can align at any one time.

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#12636 - 30 Jul 06 11:18 Re: Occams Razor
Choc_Cow Offline
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Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
You empty her bag, and out falls the watch. You make the mistake of asking how it got there. Occams razor says she took it, but she tells you someone took it and planted it there. The spirits took it. The spirits MADE her take it…..
PB probably the maid, being the gentle woman that she's, was only trying to soften the blow from the news.

Instead of blaming a spirit, i think a better method is to claim that you're under the Imperius Curse!! * that way you can shift the blame to a person you dislike..

*source: Harry Potter

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#12637 - 30 Jul 06 11:46 Re: Occams Razor
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
But the concept even extends to JakChat:

Last night I emailed someone a simple, straightforward question based upon three reasonable pieces of evidence. Evidence that would be sufficient to provide “beyond reasonable doubt’ in an Australian court.

I was promptly shouted down, told I was “full of negative thoughts”, I was “cynical”, I was “hurtful”. The tirade of abuse was so full on it actually made me realise that there was even more behind the original situation!!!

Everything apparently was “coincidence”. (Just like the maid coincidentally being able to call the missing phone and have someone find it in a garbage bin).

I don’t give a shit about coincidence. I don’t give a shit who is who on JakChat, and I don’t care who is fucking, or was fucking, or is planning to fuck, who.

I do give a shit when someone insults my intelligence.

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#12638 - 30 Jul 06 19:46 Re: Occams Razor
Choc_Cow Offline
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Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
But the concept even extends to JakChat:

Last night I emailed someone a simple, straightforward question based upon three reasonable pieces of evidence. Evidence that would be sufficient to provide “beyond reasonable doubt’ in an Australian court.

I was promptly shouted down, told I was “full of negative thoughts”, I was “cynical”, I was “hurtful”.
Sweet PB.. i dont know what's really going on here but please try to calm down... we're all friends in this forum are we not? wink

Don't you think it is possible that a straight forward question can actually be hurtful?

In fact alot of times, the straight forward ones are the one that cuts deep.

I've been asked questions that made my heart jumped a beat, due to its straightforwardness (and due to my own action which led to the question).

I also had broken into tears just because of a question, in this case, there was no denying he had the right to ask such question, but also there was no denying that he was fully aware when he asked such thing, he's bound to hurt me. I knew his purpose was only to get an answer (he probably meant no harm), but my heart was wounded anyway knowing the extent that he went through..

So sometimes its just a matter of different perspectives, not necessarily an exact example of occams razor.. don't you think?

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#12639 - 30 Jul 06 20:05 Re: Occams Razor
Patrick S. Offline
Member

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 8
Loc: Jakarta
It shocks the most if you realise that your own Indonesian wife lies to you while swearing to god, her fathers name etc. all together. It happened to me and I'm shocked until now, I can't believe she was such a liar and I honestly believed in her every single word, moreover myself I was fully honest about everything. Then I realised that all she told me was just bunch of lies, very manipulative lies prepared in such way that will make me believe her words and hide the truth.

Actually, do you know what was her excuse when I discovered that she lied to me while swearing to god? She said "I crossed my fingers while saying that"!!! Can you believe it?! This is how low someone can get and it is someone who claims to be religious Christian. I just can not believe what I've heard with my own ears.

Hopefully soon I'll be divorced and until now I can not understand how come I could be so blinded with her lies all these years. Fortunately truth always comes out. I also believe liars will always have bad karma as it was in my case. Meanwhile I advise all expatriates to think five times before you really believe what your Indonesian girlfriend says.

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#12640 - 30 Jul 06 20:29 Re: Occams Razor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
i think you're being a little harsh with your generalisations, though i can understand your hurt. of course, not all indonesians are like that, however it may well be that a disproportionate number of indonesian females that the average white male meets here are rather more dishonest and/or amoral.

despite indonesia being promoted by its elites as being a "negara religius", the facts speak otherwise. javanese culture in particular is strongly amoral, and means very much justify the ends, and might is right.
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#12641 - 30 Jul 06 20:34 Re: Occams Razor
Choc_Cow Offline
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Registered: 25 May 06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Di Puncak
such a bad reputation hmm... frown ?

what about thai, chinese,australian, american girlfriend & so on?

i think the key is compatibility, if you're 70y/o and your wife-tobe-gf is only 25.. then there probably is a hidden agenda, be prepared for all the lies. This is not just applied to indo girlfriends..

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#12642 - 30 Jul 06 20:37 Re: Occams Razor
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
In this case it was a simple, innocuous question that, on the face of it, meant nothing. As simple as – “do you take sugar?” I simply asked if two JakChat identities are one and the same. (Anyone with a brain will know who I am talking about). I had three good reasons to think that they may have been.

The obvious answers would be “yes”, “no”, or “mind your own business”….

But because of a series of relationships (that I didn’t know about), I was then told that I am “full of negative thoughts”, “cynical” and “hurtful”. Turns out that there is far more going on behind JC than appears…..

I wasn’t to know that, and to be honest I really don’t care. I keep out of the real personal stuff.

The real issue though is the propensity for Indonesians to lie directly to a Bules face, with the most improbable stories, and expect to be believed.

Patrick has it bang on the nail….. I take anything an Indonesian says with a pinch of salt.

In the late 80s I discovered an engineering design of mine being used by JKT competitors. When I asked about it I was given straight faced assurances that the competitor must have “guessed” a very complex solution to the problem.

I bought a developer a laptop last year. With a couple of days he was “mugged” and the laptop stolen. I think he simply sold it, and waited for me to buy him another one. If he needed $2000 so badly I would have given it him.

WHY do you do it…..?

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#12643 - 30 Jul 06 21:02 Re: Occams Razor
Patrick S. Offline
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Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 8
Loc: Jakarta
I think lies are deep in local culture. There's some reason for Indonesia being one of the most corrupted nations. It's not the system, it's the people.

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#12644 - 30 Jul 06 21:09 Re: Occams Razor
Patrick S. Offline
Member

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 8
Loc: Jakarta
However, I admit I'm bit too harsh as KuKuKaChu said. I have some Indonesian friends that I trust and who have always been honest with me. Unfortunately, this is rare and I value this friendship very high.

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#12645 - 30 Jul 06 21:11 Re: Occams Razor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
But because of a series of relationships (that I didn’t know about), I was then told that I am “full of negative thoughts”, “cynical” and “hurtful”. Turns out that there is far more going on behind JC than appears…..
really? why haven't i been told?! smile

and why would people say that about you?
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#12646 - 30 Jul 06 21:12 Re: Occams Razor
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I have lived in Japan, with a Japanese GF. They tell you what you want to hear, but don’t stretch logic into the disbelief.

Here is the difference:

You come home early to find your GF and best friend naked in bed.

An indo girl will come up with some complex piece of total bullshit that doesn’t deserve credibility.

A Japanese girl will say – I wanted a fuck but I don’t like him.

Both are probably lying, one is possibly believable, the other is just rubbish.

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#12647 - 30 Jul 06 21:19 Re: Occams Razor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by Patrick S.:
I think lies are deep in local culture. There's some reason for Indonesia being one of the most corrupted nations. It's not the system, it's the people.
by "people" presumably you mean their culture and values. a particularly good book on Javanese culture is Franz Magnis-Suseno's "Javanese Ethics and Worldview" (Gramedia, Jakarta, 1977). well, the first half of the book is good, anyway. the second half he tends to get lost in philosophising.

he describes the cultural basis of javanese outlooks and values, and it can really put things into perspective. sure, it won't stop bar girls lying to you and taking you for a ride smile , but at least you'll understand at little where javanese in particular are coming from.

in any case, when it comes down to it i would choose to live in indonesia any day compared to hell holes like australia, the US and europe. like i often say, at least here i know i'm alive.
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#12648 - 30 Jul 06 21:20 Re: Occams Razor
Patrick S. Offline
Member

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 8
Loc: Jakarta
You're right, Indonesian girl will create some complex story of how this guy felt of the roof, or how he got sick and she put him in bed and other crap. I've actually took this subject pretty seriously and read dozes of books related to psychology of lies. I think I understand it better now. Overall, there is one general rule, when in doubt trust what you feel not what you hear. If you feel the girl is lying she most likely is. Certainly there are number of other lie detection techniques, but I think you can google more about this subject.

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#12649 - 30 Jul 06 21:21 Re: Occams Razor
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I don’t need some stupid Jakarta bitch to tell me my problems, I am honest enough to write about them, and freely admit to them. Its an honesty that is lacking in a lot of people.

As for other races – yes of course they lie. I don’t CARE about the lies, I care about the stupidity of the lies, that show me that the liar thinks I am a gullible idiot.

EVERY JKT girl I meet seems to have just had her phone stolen, and seems to want me to buy her a new one…… After a while you get to know that you are being conned.

Yes – Thai girls tell just as many stupid useless lies. Yes – I get just as pissed off about it. But they have the brains not to abuse me for asking simple questions that may expose such a lie.

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#12650 - 30 Jul 06 21:25 Re: Occams Razor
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
In this case I was abused for even asking the question, and then doubting the highly improbable “coincidence” answer.

Well – fix the national habit of Indonesians telling bullshit before you rip my head off.

I wont ask any more questions. Now will I invest any more time or money in a country where truth means nothing.

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#12651 - 30 Jul 06 21:31 Re: Occams Razor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
here are some notes that i took years ago from the book i mentioned above ... a lot of irrelevant stuff, but i can't be bothered editing it; just to give you a flavour of what it's about:


Javanese Ethics and World-View
The Javanese Idea of the Good Life
Franz Magnis-Suseno


Chapter 2: Introduction to Javanese Society

4 languages; Betawi, Sunda, Jawa and Madura

Pesisir Culture: Islamic-based trading culture of the Javanese of the north coast.



pesisir = beach, coastal area



kejawan = Javanese of the royal cities of Yogyakarta and Surakarta, and also Kediri, Malang and Madiun; mysticism associated with the Javanese view of the world.



wong cilik = the “little people”; agricultural workers and low-income urban dwellers.



priyayi = the class of officials and intellectuals



ndara = member of the nobility



basically, the Javanese world-view considers that every aspect of the cosmic and social order is predetermined.



People must strive to maintain a high degree of inner peace, free from agitation of spirit.



The central religious rite for every Javanese is the slametan, which re-establishes the harmony of the universe and the neighbourhood.



lurah = headman of a desa, elected every 8 years.

camat = sub-district head

bupati = regent, government agent in charge of a regency





The central theme of Indian political ideas was of a centralised, hierarchal state organisation under a God King.



During the 10th century, coastal Java suddenly disappears from the political map. (Merapi eruption?)



Kediri has always played the role as a center of opposition to existing powers, according to Javanese history.



Jawa reached the peak of its political power under Gadjah Mada.



vassal states = a state under an obligation to render military or other assistance to a superior power.



The rulers of the cities of the northern coastline found Islam attractive as a symbol of opposition to the Majapahit empire, and as an alternative to the Hindu world-view.



ulama = Islamic scholar



heterodox = not in accordance with established or accepted doctrines or opinions, especially. in regard to religion.



darul islam = Islamic state



One of the major objectives of the Suharto government was to integrate the santri groups into the New Order. Islamic groups constitute the only serious political opposition to the government.





Chapter 3: Two Basic Principles of Javanese Social Life



Two Basic Principles of Javanese social life:

1. Conflict Avoidance - avoid open confrontation in every situation,

2. Respect for Authority - respectful behaviour towards all those whose position in society demands it.

Javanese conduct conforms to these two principles in all situations.



rukun = “to feel oneself in a state of harmony”, “calm and peaceful”, without quarrel or dispute”, harmonious



Rukun is marked by cooperation, mutual acceptance, calm, and unity. Rukun is the ideal situation that Javanese wish to see prevail in all social relationships.



“Social peace and unity are the normal state and will be preserved naturally as long as they are not disturbed.” Therefore, all conduct which might upset social harmony must be avoided. The rukun principle is the principle of conflict avoidance.



inggih = “yes” to someone of higher position



The rukun principle requires that personal interests be set aside and, if necessary, renounced in order to reach an understanding. Striving for individual progress without group participation is considered offensive. Similarly, demonstration of personal initiative will be judged negatively, because innovations break new ground and always result in a change to the delicate balance of social forces. Individuals should always work together and within a group. Private ambitions must never be shown.



One should appear relaxed at all times, never lose ones calm, and show neither surprise nor excitement. One should avoid surprising or shocking other people. Speak in a calm, emotionless voice. Open expression of feelings is considered extremely poor taste.



Disagreeable truths, admonitions and demands should never be put directly to the individual concerned, but must be carefully prepared and gift-wrapped.



krama (kromo) = polite speech form used to and by upper class people.



The Javanese baby is never left alone, and never goes through a crawling phase. The possibility of exploring and making his own discoveries is excluded. All shocks and dangers are diverted by his environment.



Obedience is obtained not through punishment or warnings, but through the threat of forces outside the family (evil spirits, dogs, strangers).



isin = shy, embarrassed, ashamed; to feel shame in the presence of outsiders



The Javanese endeavour to treat people with whom they have business or personal relationships as relatives by blood.



A person who makes a stunning profit is expected to share it with the community, starting with relatives.



musyawarah = consultative decision-making process in which all voices and opinions are heard.



rela = willing, acquiesce in

ikhlas = sincere, with all one’s heart and soul



It has been suggested that the relatively high divorce rate amongst Javanese and the seeming lack of depth in the emotional ties between marriage partners is partly due to the fact that separation, by walking away from trouble, is the simplest way of managing conflict.



Javanese have limits beyond which they may not be pushed, When these limits are exceeded, they react with confrontation, happening in the form of a highly emotional outburst, quite out of proportion with the occasion. Such an outbreak means the total collapse of all the restraint mechanism and is considered particularly dismaying and embarrassing. It constitutes a complete breakdown of the rukun principle.



ngerti isin = to understand embarrassment



The respect principle leads to a patron-client relationship.



Subordinates have no business to measure their superiors against moral guidelines, to criticise them, or call them to acknowledge their responsibilities. The opposite is the case: the actual behaviour of the superior is justified and becomes the standard which the subordinate strives to imitate. This can lead corruption, weak consciousness of responsibilities, and inefficiency.



laporan kecap = a report that has been “seasoned to taste”; a report telling the superior what he wants to hear.



sreg = well fitting, comfortable, at ease; fitting together





Chapter 4: The Javanese World View



Wet rice cultivation very much encourages all activities directed at restraining the wild forces in nature: it stimulates the population to achieve a high degree of mutual cooperation and aid; peace must be maintained with neighbouring villages. Technical ability, organisational skill, special care for the preservation of social peace and harmonious development of the community and other social virtues have in the course of two or three thousand years formed the special character of the Javanese people.



Dewi Sri = the Rice Goddess



urmat = the place of every person within the society



The slamet (well being) of the Javanese depends on finding his place and staying there.



What is important is not whether something is true (bener), but whether it fits (cocog).





Powerful individuals are believed to be magically endowed, in either good or evil senses.



Power is something substantial. It exists on its own, independent of any person who possesses it. It is in fact the very essence of reality and has a divine basis, as seen from the forces emanating from it.



For the Javanese the total amount of power in the universe is always constant. It can neither increase nor decrease. Only its distribution within the cosmos can be altered. Concentration of power in one place, therefore, implies a diminution of power in other places.



jaman edan = “crazy times”



Javanese view intensive activity, agitated dealings, and visible worry as signs of weakness. True power reveals itself in quiet calmness.



Alus is the quality of smoothness, softness, elegance, politeness, unobtrusiveness. Anyone who is alus reveals that he has complete control over himself, and therefore, possesses inner power.



perintah alus = a “soft” command; a command given as an intimation, a suggestion, or an allusion; a gentle hint from above; an indirect order.



The recipient of divine power acts like a magnet for military power, wealth, respect, and influential connections, with no visible effort.



There are ways of concentrating cosmic power within oneself by holding the outer world at bay, increasing self-control and concentrating one’s inner being exclusively on the chosen goal. Ascetic exercises include fasting, sleep deprivation, sexual abstinence, and meditation. One retreats to the forest and mountains for solitude in order to meditate.



pusaka = heirloom, often with magically properties



Magical power can be lost when the ruler begins to give way to his passions and follow his own interests (pamrih). Pamrih endangers the ruler because it erodes his power.



The idea that law should stand above the person of the ruler is unknown in Javanese political philosophy.



In order to prove his own magically potency and to escape the curse that obviously lay upon the place of his usurped predecessor, the new ruler often moved his residence to a new place.



From the Javanese concept of power, the king must maintain absolute power. Only then can he lay claim to having concentrated all the cosmic forces of the kingdom within himself. The king, therefore, cannot tolerate any semi-autonomous regions within his field of power. This explains why no rural aristocracy developed.



The attempt to obtain power is always legitimate when it is successful, for true power necessarily prevails.



Bima = second of the five Pandawa brothers.



Kurawa = the 99 cousins and “leftist” opponents of the 5 Pandawa brothers.



Bima tears the sea-serpent Nemburnawa to pieces with his magically powerful fingernails (Pancanaka).



Pancanaka = Bima’s magically potent fingernails.



Bagong = a clown; third son of Semar.



Priyayi means formality of bearing, restraint of expression, and bodily self-discipline – a constant awareness of himself as an object of perception for others and therefore obligated to present a pleasing, alus picture. Spontaneity or naturalness of gesture or speech is fitting only for those ‘not yet Javanese’, ie, the mad, the simple-minded, and children. There is great concern with correct posture, with soft-coloured (browns and blues mainly) abstract textile designs, with graceful gesture, with soft, slow, even speech.



Rasa is the condition of calm satisfaction of inner peace, and of the absence of tension.



takdir = destiny; divine pre-destination

nasib = personal fate

darma = duties assigned by destiny



pamrih = to seek only one’s own egotistical interests
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#12652 - 30 Jul 06 21:37 Re: Occams Razor
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Its an interesting subject – I was criticised for asking, and then doubting the answer. But as I think we can agree, telling the truth is less important than an acceptable answer – meaning the recipient will probably doubt….

My real issue, I guess, is the low level of ability to explain a situation or event.

If oyu are going to lie, at least tell a good convincing one.

And don’t be surprised if the listener doubts you…

But occams razor works will, because the most reasonable explanation is usually the truth…..

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#12653 - 30 Jul 06 21:38 Re: Occams Razor
Patrick S. Offline
Member

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 8
Loc: Jakarta
PB let's make it even more interesting. You know what my wife showed to me after she had lied and we had a big fight about it? She showed me a printout of an article from the web called "How to rebuild trust in relationship." According to the article the first stage is to be honest and don't lie anymore, so she said she is already honest and told me everything, but in fact she continued to lie to me and she wasn't honest at all. This was beyond my imagination. I just can't believe anyone could be that immoral and go with a lie and brainwashing that far.

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#12654 - 30 Jul 06 21:41 Re: Occams Razor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by Chocolatea:
such a bad reputation hmm... frown ?

what about thai, chinese,australian, american girlfriend & so on?
i'm not sure you can say that indonesians are "bad". if they were, why am i still here after all these years?

and chinese and western women? been there, done that, won't be doing it again in my lifetime.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#12655 - 30 Jul 06 21:43 Re: Occams Razor
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
LOL Patrick…….

Yes I have had the same bullshit in the past. My Chinese ex was always out with her accountant (married Chinese guy with 3 kids). She would get in from a business dinner at 3am, drunk with her lipstick smudged…

She insisted it was all legitimate, and told me I was a bad man for not “trusting her”….

I shagged her best friend, then got her to tell the accountants wife about the relationship. Funny how the late night business dinners ended so suddenly.

Trust is something earned….. go fucking earn it girls.

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#12656 - 30 Jul 06 21:45 Re: Occams Razor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by KuKuKaChu:
Quote:
Originally posted by Chocolatea:
such a bad reputation hmm... frown ?

what about thai, chinese,australian, american girlfriend & so on?
i'm not sure you can say that indonesians are "bad". if they were, why am i still here after all these years?

and chinese and western women? been there, done that, won't be doing it again in my lifetime.
They are not ‘bad” – they are just as big a bunch of liars as any girls from third world Asian countries.

It’s the quality of the lies that upsets me. It belittles my intelligence (and that is pretty small.)

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#12657 - 30 Jul 06 21:50 Re: Occams Razor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
There is a similar problem over cheating in university here in Sydney. It is endemic in Asian students – and this is not me, this is widely reported in academia.

Once agian the end justifies the means. cheat, get a degree......

So I doubt the ability of EVERY Asian student that I meet. Any Asian who objects to my attitude – FIX THE CHEATING, don’t ask me to fix my attitude to accept the cheating……

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#12658 - 30 Jul 06 21:52 Re: Occams Razor
Patrick S. Offline
Member

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 8
Loc: Jakarta
The thing with using her best friend was quite impressive. You should write a manual, something like "Indonesian spouse for dummies" - best strategies in dealing with local women.

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