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#10065 - 12 Jun 06 06:38 Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Magpie Offline
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Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
The US says the detainees had other means of protest
A top US official has described the suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as a "good PR move to draw attention".
Colleen Graffy told the BBC the deaths were part of a strategy and "a tactic to further the jihadi cause", but taking their own lives was unnecessary.

But lawyers say the men who hanged themselves had been driven by despair.

A military investigation into the deaths is under way, amid growing calls for the centre to be moved or closed.

Speaking to the BBC's Newshour programme, Ms Graffy, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy, said the three men did not value their lives nor the lives of those around them.

Detainees had access to lawyers, received mail and had the ability to write to families, so had other means of making protests, she said, and it was hard to see why the men had not protested about their situation.

The men, two Saudis and a Yemeni, were found unresponsive and not breathing by guards on Saturday morning, said officials.

They were in separate cells in Camp One, the highest security section of the prison.

Despair

There have been dozens of suicide attempts since the camp was set up four years ago - but none successful until now.

I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of warfare waged against us

Rear Adm Harry Harris Camp commander

Ken Roth, head of Human Rights Watch in New York, told the BBC the men had probably been driven by despair.

"These people are despairing because they are being held lawlessly," he said.

"There's no end in sight. They're not being brought before any independent judges. They're not being charged and convicted for any crime."

That view was supported by British Muslim Moazzam Begg who spent three years in Guantanamo. He said of the camp's inmates: "They're in a worse situation than convicted criminals and it's an act of desperation."

But earlier, the camp commander, Rear Adm Harris said he did not believe the men had killed themselves out of despair.

"They are smart. They are creative, they are committed," he said.

"They have no regard for life, either ours or their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us."

Calls for closure

US officials are facing growing international calls for the camp to be closed down.

"If it's perfectly legal and there's nothing going wrong there - well, why don't they have it in America and then the American court system can supervise it?" UK Constitutional Affairs Minister Harriet Harman told the BBC on Sunday.

But Ms Graffy said closing down Guantanamo was a "complicated process" which needed to consider what would happen to detainees if the centre was shut down.

On Friday, Mr Bush said he would "like to end Guantanamo", adding he believed the inmates "ought to be tried in courts here in the United States".


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5069230.stm
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#10066 - 12 Jun 06 06:46 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
juminten Offline
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Registered: 08 Dec 05
Posts: 3870
Loc: disana-disini
I only can say "good"! these arab muslim bloodsuckers needed to be dead anyway! don't worry they will go to heaven directly laugh
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#10067 - 12 Jun 06 06:46 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Magpie Offline
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Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Chorus mounts against Guantanamo
By Paul Reynolds
World Affairs correspondent, BBC News website


The committee told the US to close Guantanamo Bay
The UN Committee against Torture's call for the closure of Guantanamo Bay shows that international voices are increasingly being raised against the institutions set up by the United States in its "war on terror", and not just against the treatment of prisoners in them.

The definitions and legal limits of the structures and the practices the US has followed are all being tested - and in many cases found wanting - as it tries to conduct what it regards as a war vital to its well-being.

This latest criticism has come from the UN body charged with overseeing compliance with the UN convention against torture and other inhuman treatment.

The committee is made up of 10 independent, international human rights experts, one of them an American, Felice Gaer, who has a long record of human rights work. The committee periodically summons member states to justify their policies.

It was blunt about the Guantanamo Bay camp: "The state party should cease to detain any person at Guantanamo Bay and close the detention facility."

Prisoners there should be given access to a "judicial process" or released, and not sent anywhere they could face torture.

UN COMMITTEE AGAINST TORTURE

The state party should take immediate measures to eradicate all forms of torture and ill-treatment of detainees by its military or civilian personnel, in any territory under its jurisdiction


Recommendations in full (131K)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/19_05_06_torture.pdf


It also said that the United States should not send any prisoner to any state where they could be tortured, a reference to the practice of "rendering" suspects, often secretly, from one country to another.

It called for any secret detention camps to be disclosed.

"The state party should ensure that no-one is detained in any secret detention facility under its de facto effective control," it said.

It also called for all prisoners anywhere to be registered.

As for the issue of torture and ill treatment, it said: "The state party should take immediate measures to eradicate all forms of torture and ill-treatment of detainees by its military or civilian personnel, in any territory under its jurisdiction," the implication being that such practices might still be continuing.

The practices of "waterboarding" (in which a suspect experiences a feeling of drowning) and the use of dogs to instil fear should not be permitted, it said.

Criticism mounts

The committee's conclusion follows a recent speech by the British Attorney-General Lord Goldsmith, who hardened the rhetoric of the US's close ally by declaring that the Guantanamo Bay camp was "unacceptable".

Even President Bush has found himself on the defensive, saying recently that he would like to close the camp and was waiting for a Supreme Court ruling in a case involving Osama Bin Laden's driver, expected by the end of June.

This case will determine whether military tribunals trying detainees are legal. However, if the tribunals are declared legal, then presumably the detentions and the camp will continue.

Allegations about US military or intelligence activities have become so hyperbolic as to be absurd

John Bellinger, head of US delegation

The UN report follows detailed questioning of US legal representatives at hearings at the committee's Geneva headquarters in May.

At those hearings, the US team refused to talk in detail about rendition beyond saying that the US did not transport people to a country where they might be tortured, a form of words devised by the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on a visit to Europe.

Nor would the 25-strong US delegation talk about any secret camps.

However, it did defend its record and reforms.

The delegation's leader, John Bellinger - a lawyer from the State Department - pointed out that last year Congress had passed the Detainee Treatment Act, which included a provision against the use of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, as defined in the convention.

Mr Bellinger said that under the act "no person in the custody of or under the physical control of the United States government, regardless of nationality of physical location, should be subject to cruel, unusual or inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by certain provisions of the [US] Constitution".

The committee welcome this statement in its report.

This provision came about, however, only after a strong campaign led by Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam.

And President Bush has reserved a right to interpret his powers as commander-in-chief as he sees fit, which is taken to mean that in extreme circumstances (for example, in the questioning of a suspect with knowledge of an impending attack) the provision might be ignored.

The delegation acknowledged that 29 people had died from suspected abuse while in US custody.

Mr Bellinger also said: "I would ask you not to believe every allegation that you've heard. Allegations about US military or intelligence activities have become so hyperbolic as to be absurd."

Paul.Reynolds-INTERNET@bbc.co.uk
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#10068 - 12 Jun 06 06:47 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
juminten Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Dec 05
Posts: 3870
Loc: disana-disini
btw honey, this thread not supposed to be here though... smile
Can we move this at the Current Affairs & Events?
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#10069 - 12 Jun 06 06:51 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Magpie Offline
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Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Profile: Guantanamo Bay

Allegations of mistreatment at the camp surfaced early on
The US detention camp at Guantanamo Bay has come under intense scrutiny since it began to receive foreign detainees in early 2002.
The US has faced frequent attacks for holding inmates without trial and for their alleged mistreatment.

United Nations human rights investigators have called for the camp's immediate closure.

But the US government has been steadfast in its defence of the camp and says inmates are treated humanely.

Housed on a naval base in Cuba, the camp was established to hold suspected terrorists captured on the battlefields of Afghanistan.

The US defence department says their detention is a matter of security and military necessity in the "war on terror".


Pentagon officials insist international law entitles them to hold "enemy combatants" - who do not enjoy the rights of prisoners of war or US citizens accused of crimes - without charges or trial for the duration of hostilities.

Doing so acts as a deterrent and prevents further attacks on the US, they say.

By November 2002, the camp held more than 600 detainees. Since then, 260 have been either freed or handed over to their national governments.

The camp currently houses about 490 detainees from about 40 countries, and is said to include terrorist suspects picked up in Eastern Europe and Africa.

In March 2005, the US defence department released the names and nationalities of some of the inmates for the first time.

It came as a result of a Freedom of Information Act request filed by the Associated Press news agency.

Abuse investigation

Allegations of mistreatment emerged from the start.

The International Red Cross is the only organisation that has been granted full access to detainees.


The US says that it has no plans to close the camp
However, the UN says it has evidence that torture has taken place at the prison.

Its allegations include the force-feeding of hunger strikers through nasal tubes and the simultaneous use of interrogation techniques such as prolonged solitary confinement and exposure to extreme temperatures, noise and light.

The UN also says many of the inmates have had mental breakdowns.

Detainee representatives have repeatedly complained that inmates have been denied access to a lawyer.

In a report in May 2005, the human rights group Amnesty International called the camp "the gulag of our times" and also called for it to be shut down.

Last year, a report in the US magazine Newsweek - later retracted - said US guards had flushed a Koran down a toilet, sparking violent anti-US protests worldwide.

An FBI memo, reported in the New York Times earlier this year, described incidents of abuse involving strangulation, beatings and the placing of lit cigarettes into detainees' ears.

The Pentagon insists prisoners are treated humanely.

It has admitted to five incidents in which the Koran was mishandled by staff at the camp. But the head of the camp, Brig Gen Jay Hood, said only 10 cases of misconduct by guards had been recorded since 2002.

Nonetheless, early this year it announced an investigation into the allegations.

Legal process

While there have been no new arrivals since September 2004, the department of defence says it has no plans to close the camp in the foreseeable future.

The status of the remaining detainees is reviewed every year through a system of military administrative review boards, which recommend whether an inmate should be released or detained further.

These will continue indefinitely until all detainees are released, transferred to other governments or charged and tried, a defence official told the BBC.

The US says interrogations are yielding useful intelligence, including some from inmates who have been detained for up to two years.

So far, only nine inmates have been charged, to be tried by a military tribunal, although challenges to their legality have reached the US Supreme Court.

In opposing these challenges, the US government has been accused of eroding the rule of international law.

However, military officials complain that those who call for the camp's closure fail to see the bigger picture - that many of the detainees are still dangerous and would attack the US if released.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4720962.stm
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#10070 - 12 Jun 06 06:57 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Quote:
Originally posted by wallet-digga':
btw honey, this thread not supposed to be here though... smile
Can we move this at the Current Affairs & Events?
Nah sweety, this cant go into current affairs or Events, because that is only for Indonesian news.....I think that there will defiently be somewhere to put this type of thread when Kuku does all the changes in July.

Hugs manis wink
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"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#10071 - 12 Jun 06 07:09 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
juminten Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Dec 05
Posts: 3870
Loc: disana-disini
He..he he! okie then..I thought we only talk about chocolate and sperm here..I mean chocolate and skim milk! :p

huggs hot dude! dinner..lapar!
btw..where the heck is my sweet sis laluna? busy with her Bobby or what! frown
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#10072 - 13 Jun 06 04:45 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Magpie Offline
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Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Pressure grows on Guantanamo Bay
By Paul Reynolds
World Affairs Correspondent, BBC News website


The adverse reaction to a claim by a senior US official that the suicides of three Guantanamo Bay detainees was a "good PR move" adds to the growing international pressure for the camp to be closed.
The comment was made by Colleen Graffy, deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy, and reflected what the camp commander Rear Admiral Harry Harris had said about the suicides being "an act of warfare waged against us".
However, Ms Graffy's remark was shortly afterwards disowned by another official, Cully Stimson, deputy Assistant Secretary of Defence for Detainee Affairs who said: "I wouldn't characterise it is as a good PR move."
In the world of public diplomacy that is quite a putdown.
Previous form
Colleen Graffy, formerly a professor of law at Pepperdine University, has been known to go in for combative debate before.
In an e-mail exchange with Kate Allen of Amnesty International UK, published in 2004 by the UK newspaper the Guardian, she said: "In the Second World War, Americans and Britons who were captured were held until the end of hostilities. They were not read rights or given a dime to call their lawyer.
"International law has not caught up with the problems posed by the current threat of terrorism. One being, how do we deal with non-state actors such as al-Qaeda who have not signed the Geneva Convention nor have any desire to abide by it?"
Confusion
The confused reaction of American officials probably reflects the overall uncertainty surrounding the future of Guantanamo Bay.
The camp is at crisis point internationally, with even the Americans' close ally Britain now openly calling for the camp to be closed.
The language of British ministers has noticeably hardened against the camp. Harriett Harman, the Constitutional Affairs Minister and herself politically close to Mr Blair, said after the suicides: "It is in a legal no man's land. Either it should be moved to America and then they can hold these people under the American justice system or it should be closed."
The European Union's External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner said: "Guantanamo should be closed."
It was no surprise that the Guardian newspaper should say that "the demented logic of Dr Strangelove hung like a ghost" over the US reaction.
But the Times of London, normally a supporter of US foreign policy, was also critical, saying that President Bush, having indicated that he would like to close the camp, "needs to be much clearer about when, and how".
All eyes on Supreme Court
The "when" and the "how" are currently awaiting a crucial ruling by the US Supreme Court. After that judgement, which is expected by the end of this month, things should become clearer.
In the meantime, the debate within the United States about the future of the camp has been put somewhat on hold.
The case, Hamdan v Rumsfeld, was brought against the US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld by Salid Ahmed Hamdan, a Yemeni who was Osama Bin Laden's driver in Afghanistan.
Mr Hamdan is challenging the right of the US authorities at Guantanamo Bay to try him in front of a military commission or tribunal. He is accused of conspiracy to commit attacks on civilians and terrorism.
He says he was simply a driver who had to earn a living for his family.
Legal proceedings
Mr Hamdan had success in the first legal outing, in the US District Court in Washington, which ruled that he could not face a military commission unless he had previously been found not to be a prisoner of war under the Geneva Convention.
He claims POW status, but like all camp prisoners, he is denied this and is described as an "unlawful combatant" instead.
However, a court of appeals reversed this decision and said that the president had authority - notably under a congressional resolution passed after 9/11 allowing him to prosecute the war against al-Qaeda - to order military commissions.
The Supreme Court ruling therefore will determine the way forward. If military commissions are allowed, then prisoners like Salid Ahmed Hamdan (ten have been charged) will be tried by them and sentenced if found guilty.
What would happen to the others is not clear.
That would not satisfy critics of the system (the sentences might even be longer than waiting until the end of the "war on terror").
If commissions are held to be unlawful, pressure on President Bush to radically change the legal status of the detainees would only increase. There might even be political pressure for him to close the camp and blame the Supreme Court. Most prisoners might be returned home and only a few detained, whose future would be argued out in the courts.
Paul.Reynolds-INTERNET@bbc.co.uk



In the Second World War, Americans and Britons who were captured were held until the end of hostilities. They were not read rights or given a dime to call their lawyer

Colleen Graffy


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5071870.stm
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#10073 - 13 Jun 06 04:53 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Dead detainee 'was to be freed'

One of the three men who committed suicide at the US prison camp at Guantanamo Bay was due to be released - but did not know it, says a US lawyer.
Mark Denbeaux, who represents some of the foreign detainees said the man was among 141 prisoners due to be released.
He said the prisoner was not told because US officials had not decided which country he would be sent to.
Meanwhile, a top US official appeared to row back from the tough line taken by other officials over the suicides.
At the weekend, one top state department official called them a "good PR move to draw attention", while the camp commander said it was an "act of asymmetric warfare waged against us".

"I wouldn't characterise this as a good PR move," Cully Stimson, US deputy assistance secretary of defence, told the BBC's Today programme, on Monday.
"What I would say is that we are always concerned when someone takes his own life, because as Americans we value life even if it is the life of a violent terrorist captured waging war against our country."
'Despair'
The Pentagon named the prisoner who had been recommended for transfer as 30-year-old Saudi Arabian Mani Shaman Turki al-Habardi Al-Utaybi.
He was a member of a banned Saudi militant group, the defence department said.
The other two men who died on Saturday morning were named as Ali Abdullah Ahmed, 28, from Yemen, and Yassar Talal al-Zahrani, 21, another Saudi Arabian.
Ahmed was a mid- to high-level al-Qaeda operative who had participated in a long-term hunger strike from late 2005 to May, and was "non-compliant and hostile" to guards, the Pentagon said.
Zahrani, 21, was a "front-line" Taleban fighter who helped procure weapons for use against US and coalition forces in Afghanistan, according to the department.
Professor Denbeaux told the BBC World Service that the feeling among detainees at the Cuba camp was one of hopelessness.
"These people are told they'll be 50 by the time they get out, that they have no hope of getting out. They've been denied a hearing, they have no chance to be released," he said.
He said US policy was to refuse to tell prisoners they were due to be released until a location had been found.
Utaybi had been declared a "safe person, free to be released" but the US needed a country to send him to, Professor Denbeaux said.
"His despair was great enough and in his ignorance he went and killed himself," he said.
Mounting criticism
The prison camp at the US base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, holds some 460 prisoners, the vast majority without charge.
There have been dozens of suicide attempts since the camp was set up four years ago - but none successful until now.
Criticism of the camp is mounting, even among President Bush's Republicans.
"There are tribunals established... Where we have evidence they ought to be tried, and if convicted they ought to be sentenced," said Republican Arlen Specter, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Some inmates had been detained on "the flimsiest sort of hearsay", he added.
The United Nations rapporteur on torture, Manfred Nowak, said European leaders should use a summit with President George W Bush next week to press for the prison's closure.
Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen said procedures at Guantanamo Bay violated the rule of law and undermined the fight against terrorism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5070514.stm
_________________________
"People say funny things......."

Peter Kay

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#10074 - 13 Jun 06 08:28 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
So three GB inmates hand themselves. Bo ho. Tears in my eyes.

If I ran that camp I would be hanging 50 a day to clear the world of scum.

Richard 3 had problems fighting Muslims until he slaughtered all of his prisoners (they were too expensive to feed). After that the Muslim armies were not keen on meeting him in battle…..

David Hicks father is bleating about his son held without trial in solitary.

Well here is some news for him. Get arrested in Sydney and see what happens. No bail for “serious crimes”. So you are locked in a cell – NO TRIAL.

Probably 3 year wait until the case comes up…… About as long as Hicks has spent in the Bay.

And if you are considered “at risk” you go in solitary.

Maybe in David Hicks father had been a bit of a better father, and stopped his sone from getting involved with a bunch of fanatical terrorists, David would not be in trouble.

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#10075 - 13 Jun 06 08:38 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
the suicides were blatant islamist propaganda. three suicides over the course of a few months could be understood as the result of a cruel system taking its toll on inmates; three in one night is simply part of the ongoing war.

nonetheless, GB is an unlawful prison camp, and should be closed. the US and its govt have lost their moral supremacy and are now not much better than the terrorists they are in conflict with.

it may be that one day an historian will trace back the disintegration of western civilisation to the actions of a born-again christian with good intentions...
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#10076 - 13 Jun 06 08:39 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Meanwhile, in that cornerstone of Islam, Palaestine……

Palestinian parliament torched
From correspondents in Ramallah
June 13, 2006
GUNMEN set fire to the Palestinian prime minister's office and parliament today as fighting escalated between followers of the ruling Hamas militant group and President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah movement.
In the latest sign of a deepening political crisis in the Palestinian territories, Mr Abbas ordered security forces to take control of the streets in the wake of the clashes and vandalism.
Hamas and Mr Abbas have been locked in an intensifying power struggle since the Islamists took over the government in March after trouncing Fatah in parliamentary elections.
Witnesses said the Ramallah office of Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, a senior Hamas leader, was empty when gunmen from the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, part of Fatah, entered.
Mr Haniyeh is based in Gaza, the militant group's stronghold, and does not have access to the city of Ramallah in the occupied West Bank because of Israeli curbs on travel by Hamas members.
The gunmen burned an upper floor of the multi-storey building and tossed furniture out the windows before police arrived and removed them. They also set fire to parliament in Ramallah after repeatedly firing into the building.
Fire engines rushed to both scenes to douse the flames as gunfire echoed around the streets, witnesses said.
Masked gunmen also kidnapped a Hamas legislator in Ramallah before releasing him soon after, a Palestinian official said. Several other Hamas lawmakers in Ramallah, fearing for their safety, took refuge in Mr Abbas's compound, he said.
At the core of the current tension is a referendum Abbas has called for July 26 on a manifesto for Palestinian statehood that implicitly recognises Israel. Hamas, which seeks to destroy the Jewish state, has labelled the referendum a coup attempt.
Hussein el-Sheikh, a Fatah official, blamed earlier attacks by Hamas gunmen on forces loyal to Mr Abbas in the southern Gaza town of Rafah for the West Bank violence.
"Hamas has to understand that their attacks will be met and will not be confined to Gaza and Rafah. It is going to spread to the West Bank and everywhere," he said.
Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said the vandalism was part of continued attempts "to bring down the government".
Mr Abbas later met Hamas leaders in Gaza in an attempt to cool the situation. He told reporters both sides wanted calm.
But across Gaza as midnight approached, thousands of Hamas supporters hit the streets chanting anti-Fatah slogans, witnesses said.
Mr Abbas's "state of alert" came after Hamas militants besieged a headquarters of the Preventive Security Service, loyal to Mr Abbas, in Rafah.
The Hamas gunmen fired rocket-propelled grenades and anti-tank rockets at the compound, witnesses said.
Five people were wounded in the clash in Rafah, which followed the killing earlier in the day of a gunman from a Hamas paramilitary unit. Around 20 people have been killed in internal fighting in Gaza in the past month.

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#10077 - 13 Jun 06 08:50 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
So three GB inmates hand themselves. Bo ho. Tears in my eyes.

If I ran that camp I would be hanging 50 a day to clear the world of scum.

Richard 3 had problems fighting Muslims until he slaughtered all of his prisoners (they were too expensive to feed). After that the Muslim armies were not keen on meeting him in battle…..

David Hicks father is bleating about his son held without trial in solitary.

Well here is some news for him. Get arrested in Sydney and see what happens. No bail for “serious crimes”. So you are locked in a cell – NO TRIAL.

Probably 3 year wait until the case comes up…… About as long as Hicks has spent in the Bay.

And if you are considered “at risk” you go in solitary.

Maybe in David Hicks father had been a bit of a better father, and stopped his sone from getting involved with a bunch of fanatical terrorists, David would not be in trouble.
Hear hear for decent parenting....although on the flipside, there are plenty of people out there who came from homes that were not condusive to love, parenting, education, morals etc, that have turned out to upstanding citizens.

This probably sounds like a PB thing to say...but there has got to be a lot said for the deterrant that corporal punishment provides...in all it's forms.
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#10078 - 13 Jun 06 08:56 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
GB is a prisoner of war camp. It is quite lawful.

You don’t try prisoner of war. You hold them until the war is over. My uncle parachuted into Holland in WW2. Captured by the Germans, he spent a year in a POW camp. He didn’t get a trial……

Of course, the inmates will all claim to be innocent civilians who “just happened” to be in the area.

This is part of a terrorists toolkit. Pick up a gun, fire a few shots, kill a few people, then throw it down and say “Ohhhhh, I am only a civilian. This war is nothing to do with me”

GB is a neat solution to this problem.

I never quite understand why everyone thinks we have to fight fair when the other side fights dirty. I think the end justifies the means.

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#10079 - 13 Jun 06 09:01 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie:
[QUOTE]there has got to be a lot said for the deterrant that corporal punishment provides...
Forget Corporal Punishment. He is a total wimp.

Go for Major Fucking-Thrashing. He always seems to sort people out.

Yes it is cruel. Yes it isn’t nice. But like Pavlov’s dogs, it provides a means to control people.

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#10080 - 13 Jun 06 09:31 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
juminten Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Dec 05
Posts: 3870
Loc: disana-disini
All I can say is...THANK GOD!! Less of our tax money being used! I hate the fact that they cut off my paycheck to feed these arab dogs at the GB!
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#10081 - 13 Jun 06 09:42 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Well surely the Muslim Brotherhood would feed them?

Like it feeds the 40% unemployed in Gaza.

LOL (not!)

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#10082 - 13 Jun 06 09:42 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
wallet-digga, is that you? you seem to have changed personality or something.
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#10083 - 13 Jun 06 09:49 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Help the Guantanamo Bay inmates:

Ropes needed. Donations being accepted now.

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#10084 - 13 Jun 06 09:50 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally posted by KuKuKaChu:

it may be that one day an historian will trace back the disintegration of western civilisation to the actions of a born-again christian with good intentions...
Oh come on. :p If western civ is to survive it's going to need a lot more born-again Christians, perhaps not like GB exactly, perhaps more like the teeming millions in sub-Saharan Africa. Where christianity dies, like in Europe, so does the civ.
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#10085 - 13 Jun 06 09:55 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Magpie Offline
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Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Quote:
Originally posted by patung:
Quote:
Originally posted by KuKuKaChu:

it may be that one day an historian will trace back the disintegration of western civilisation to the actions of a born-again christian with good intentions...
Oh come on. :p If western civ is to survive it's going to need a lot more born-again Christians, perhaps not like GB exactly, perhaps more like the teeming millions in sub-Saharan Africa. Where christianity dies, like in Europe, so does the civ.
i disagree, I think western civilisation is bubbling along nicely, the only difference is we have accepted religion is not important to a vast majority of our culture anymore. Maybe that's why we are hated by other groups???? Hatred because of honesty...something I know a LOT about!
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#10086 - 13 Jun 06 09:58 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Magpie Offline
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Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
[/qb][/QUOTE]Oh [i]come on[/i Where christianity dies, like in Europe, so does the civ. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Did I miss something, when did Europe die?? Because I must have missed that one...did they take that twat Tony Blair with them??? And Richard from Breakfast with Richard and Judy. And Alan Hansen, David Beckham, Jose (Chealsea manager) anyone from Wales and that bloody annoying Irish Football presenter ("The Auld onion bag geezer)? eek
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#10087 - 13 Jun 06 10:02 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
juminten Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Dec 05
Posts: 3870
Loc: disana-disini
Quote:
Originally posted by patung:
wallet-digga, is that you? you seem to have changed personality or something.
yep, still me honey! personality might changed a bit but my legs still tightly crossed! :p
Rp.5000 fee, uncrossed my legs!
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#10088 - 13 Jun 06 10:15 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Patung Offline
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Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
magpie, I guess I mean in the longish term cultural sense, not in the football sense, yes European footballers are still top stuff.

wd, I'll take your word for it, no need for leg uncrossing.
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#10089 - 13 Jun 06 10:22 Re: Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Quote:
Originally posted by patung:
magpie, I guess I mean in the longish term cultural sense, not in the football sense, yes European footballers are still top stuff.

wd, I'll take your word for it, no need for leg uncrossing.
I totally understood, and was not reffering to football.

Do you really think, that say Iraq's civilisation is in a better shape than Europe, or say Indonesia, or any middle east countries for that matter.

I just cant see at the moment how Europe's civilisation's are dying without religion

Ask yourself this, how many people claim to be religious, but actually break parts of their stated law for that religion? Millions, everyday. Perhaps it IS better to admit that you cant stick to those particular rules, and go with what you feel is correct, after all even religious scholars will admit that somethings decreed in the past may have no relevance in the here and now.
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