Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being?

Posted by: Oldman

Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 25 Dec 07 09:25

Today, 2007 years ago, a great figure was born. He was Jesus or Isa (Peace Be Upon Him). Millions of people are celebrating his birthday today. The question is:

Is he a God or just a human being like us?

Let’s discuss this topic objectively regardless our religions.

Thank you.
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 25 Dec 07 10:09

Quoting: Oldman
Is he a God or just a human being like us?

he's just a very naughty boy!
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 25 Dec 07 10:36

He was a Super Hero with Laser Eyes


Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 25 Dec 07 11:38

On second thoughts, I think he was a mere mortal!

Posted by: Piss Salon

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 25 Dec 07 11:40

It is a stretch in the extreme to believe there is any god. However, disturbingly, idiots with blind faith continue to do so to the detriment of the human race.

Merry Christmas.
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 25 Dec 07 17:48

JESUS IS NOT GOD

Both Christians and Muslims believe in Jesus, love him, and honor him. However, when the issue is about whether or not Jesus is God, then they are both divided.

To answer this issue, we should refer to both the Bible, the holy book for Christians, and Qur’an, the holy book for Muslims. Both holy books teach that Jesus is not God.
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 25 Dec 07 18:19

Quoting: Oldman
JESUS IS NOT GOD

god spelt backwards is dog. and jesus spelt backwards is susej, which sounds a little like sausage. which means that jesus is a dog sausage, or in common parlance, a hot dog.

JESUS IS A HOT DOG!
Posted by: flingwing

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 25 Dec 07 18:25

Quoting: Oldman
Both holy books teach that Jesus is not God.

Out of a curiosity to learn, because for me it isn't an issue either way, do you have some references - bible verses and/or Koran ayats - or even a internet article URL about that claim? Thanks.
Posted by: Ena

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 25 Dec 07 18:26

wasn't there a song called Jesus built my hot rod, or stole my hot rod?
Posted by: Shesca

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 25 Dec 07 18:37

Quoting: Dilli
On second thoughts, I think he was a mere mortal!


Wrong question for Dili. He has so many collection he cant wait to post of JC's related pictures.

Btw I think he's the son of God, so I guess in a way, he is God.
Posted by: emmajkt

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 25 Dec 07 21:21

Quoting: Oldman


Is he a God or just a human being like us?



i believe he is a human.
Posted by: Piss Salon

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 26 Dec 07 12:28

God save us.

About 82% of Americans in 2007 told Gallup interviewers that they identified with a Christian religion. That includes 51% who said they were Protestant, 5% who were "other Christian," 23% Roman Catholic, and 3% who named another Christian faith, including 2% Mormon.

Because 11% said they had no religious identity at all, and another 2% didn't answer, these results suggest that well more than 9 out of 10 Americans who identify with a religion are Christian in one way or the other.
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 26 Dec 07 13:02

Quoting: Piss Salon
Because 11% said they had no religious identity at all, and another 2% didn't answer, these results suggest that well more than 9 out of 10 Americans who identify with a religion are Christian in one way or the other.

more distressingly, 87% of americans consider themselves smarter than the average bear!
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 26 Dec 07 16:04

Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17). They believed that he was the son of God. Many others too, are similarly called sons of God (see Matthew 23:1-9).

Paul, believed to be the author of some thirteen or fourteen letters in the Bible, also believed that Jesus is not God. For Paul, God first created Jesus, then used Jesus as the agent by which to create the rest of creation (see Colossians 1:15 and 1 Corinthians 8:6).

While Qur’an says: “O people of the Book (Christians and Jews)! Come to a word that is just between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords beside God.” (Quran, 3:64)
Posted by: Ena

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 26 Dec 07 16:09

^ that reminds me of sami yusuf and "supplication"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozrjBGXVn2E

is he popular in Indonesia?
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 26 Dec 07 16:16

Quoting: emmajkt
Quoting: Oldman


Is he a God or just a human being like us?



i believe he is a human.


So to you, Christmas is a celebration for Jesus as a human being?
Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 26 Dec 07 16:26

Quoting: Oldman
Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17). They believed that he was the son of God. Many others too, are similarly called sons of God (see Matthew 23:1-9).

Paul, believed to be the author of some thirteen or fourteen letters in the Bible, also believed that Jesus is not God. For Paul, God first created Jesus, then used Jesus as the agent by which to create the rest of creation (see Colossians 1:15 and 1 Corinthians 8:6).

While Qur’an says: “O people of the Book (Christians and Jews)! Come to a word that is just between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords beside God.” (Quran, 3:64)


I wondered how long it would take for you to surface again.
Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 26 Dec 07 16:27

Quoting: Oldman
Quoting: emmajkt
Quoting: Oldman


Is he a God or just a human being like us?



i believe he is a human.


So to you, Christmas is a celebration for Jesus as a human being?


I hate it when people bring religion into the celebrations at this time of year.
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 26 Dec 07 16:32

Quoting: Capt. Mainwaring
I hate it when people bring religion into the celebrations at this time of year.

indeed capt. it's so unseemly.
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 26 Dec 07 16:36

and i can't help feeling that we are all being led to an inescapable, undeniable conclusion ...
Posted by: Ena

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 26 Dec 07 16:37

*pours champagne*

what conclusion??
Posted by: emmajkt

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 26 Dec 07 19:03

Quoting: Oldman
Quoting: emmajkt
Quoting: Oldman


Is he a God or just a human being like us?



i believe he is a human.


So to you, Christmas is a celebration for Jesus as a human being?


for me Christmas is celebration when people like to decorate a tree and there is old guy icon called Santa Claus.

Its all very pagan like, when people go to Christmas party to get drunk. Nothing to do with Jesus. No offense just saying..
Posted by: MbakAditya

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 26 Dec 07 19:39

Quoting: emmajkt
Quoting: Oldman
Quoting: emmajkt
[quote=Oldman]

Is he a God or just a human being like us?



i believe he is a human.


So to you, Christmas is a celebration for Jesus as a human being?


for me Christmas is celebration when people like to decorate a tree and there is old guy icon called Santa Claus.

Its all very pagan like, when people go to Christmas party to get drunk. Nothing to do with Jesus. No offense just saying.. [/quote]


That is what I like, an understanding of the true meaning of Xmas.

"its all very pagan like" - no Emma those people are all very pagan like, not Xmas.
Posted by: Oldman

Jesus is not God. - 26 Dec 07 21:15

Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: Capt. Mainwaring
I hate it when people bring religion into the celebrations at this time of year.

indeed capt. it's so unseemly.


As we all already know that X-mas is celebrated every year. It’s on Dec 25, the date when Jesus was born. Most people around the world respect him, honor him, and love him. He was a great man. History will never forget this. And nothing’s wrong with this celebration. That’s just fine.

But the question then is do people celebrate this due to the divinity of Jesus or his greatness as a human being? That’s the topic I am trying to put forward.

Thank you.
Posted by: chewwyUK

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 04:31

People Celebrate Christmas for many reasons - for me Christmas is about friends and family and tradition, nothing to do with religion.

Given the stupidity of man-kind I would say Jesus was nothing more than a David Coresh type with the skills of David Blaine. Nothing amazing there. Many if not all religions are used to control the masses and give support and comfort to those who need it. Wars have been (are being) fought in the name of religion and millions have died for it.

But it really doesnt matter what I think or anybody for that matter Oldman. My experience tells me a conversation about religion is pointless as nobody is ever going to agree
Posted by: MbakAditya

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 04:38

Quoting: Oldman
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: Capt. Mainwaring
I hate it when people bring religion into the celebrations at this time of year.

indeed capt. it's so unseemly.


As we all already know that X-mas is celebrated every year. It’s on Dec 25, the date when Jesus was born. Most people around the world respect him, honor him, and love him. He was a great man. History will never forget this. And nothing’s wrong with this celebration. That’s just fine.

But the question then is do people celebrate this due to the divinity of Jesus or his greatness as a human being? That’s the topic I am trying to put forward.

Thank you.


Actually neither - many people now celebrate Christmas for no other reason than to greedily shovel 10Kg of turkey and all the gunge that goes with it and then get rat-arsed, followed by sandwiches and a good old fashioned family punch up.

In theory the existance of Jesus as a divine being requires faith whereas as a human being he is no more or less believable than anyother storybook character. Choice is yours Oldman . Remind me , what did you used to post as before?
Posted by: MbakAditya

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 04:43

Quoting: chewwyUK
People Celebrate Christmas for many reasons - for me Christmas is about friends and family and tradition, nothing to do with religion.

Given the stupidity of man-kind I would say Jesus was nothing more than a David Coresh type with the skills of David Blaine. Nothing amazing there. Many if not all religions are used to control the masses and give support and comfort to those who need it. Wars have been (are being) fought in the name of religion and millions have died for it.

But it really doesnt matter what I think or anybody for that matter Oldman. My experience tells me a conversation about religion is pointless as nobody is every going to agree

Al


Well celebrate "chewwymas" then don't hide behind and be an excuse. Have faith and follow it or take the other choice and don't subscribe to it and just have a quiet day at home with the family, but if you don't believe then don't be wet and celebrate christmas.
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 05:42

i would celebrate kukumas, except that it would be a rather lonely celebration.

better that we cancel jesusmas and go back to what it was originally: saturnalia!

pagan rituals have a lot going for them, especially when combined with out-of-control sex orgies.
Posted by: chewwyUK

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 06:58

How about you go fuck yourself MbakAditya. I will just continue to do whatever I want without taking in to account your opinions if thats okay with you.
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 08:31

You are right, Mbak Aditya. The choice is mine, yours, and ours. That’s a free choice. Nobody can push us to choose what we should choose. Besides, religion is a private matter. We can even choose to be an atheist. THE CHOICE IS OURS.

I just want us to discuss this issue objectively. Nothing’s wrong with discussions, right?

Well, let me go on…

Every single celebration has a story (stories) behind it. Some stories are known while some not. How about X-mas? Yes, it is a celebration. That’s even huge. This is what I am talking about. What’s the story behind X-mas? To know the story behind it, we should know what the celebration is about.

As far as I know, X-mas is a celebration to commemorate Jesus’ birthday as a savior and/ or God. This is the point. Jesus never said that he was God. As we all know, Jesus was a credible and honest person. He wouldn’t tell a lie. If he never said that he is God, why do people consider him God and worship him?
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 08:33

see? told you! "inescapable and undeniable conclusions" coming up!
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 09:03

Thats not fair, I wanted to have more fun with this thread!



Posted by: MbakAditya

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 13:36

Quoting: chewwyUK
How about you go fuck yourself MbakAditya. I will just continue to do whatever I want without taking in to account your opinions if thats okay with you.


That's nice and polite, if you don't want comment then don't make a post, you ignorant fat old bule.

I made polite suggestion that to celebrate a holiday is fine but to do all of the Christian things when you don't care about Jesus etc is very shallow and you reply like that.
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 13:39

Quoting: MbakAditya
you ignorant fat old bule.

hey! that's not fair! chewwy isn't ignorant!
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 13:40

(see? i'm sticking up for you, chewwy)
Posted by: MbakAditya

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 13:45

Quoting: Oldman
You are right, Mbak Aditya. The choice is mine, yours, and ours. That’s a free choice. Nobody can push us to choose what we should choose. Besides, religion is a private matter. We can even choose to be an atheist. THE CHOICE IS OURS.

I just want us to discuss this issue objectively. Nothing’s wrong with discussions, right?

Well, let me go on…

Every single celebration has a story (stories) behind it. Some stories are known while some not. How about X-mas? Yes, it is a celebration. That’s even huge. This is what I am talking about. What’s the story behind X-mas? To know the story behind it, we should know what the celebration is about.

As far as I know, X-mas is a celebration to commemorate Jesus’ birthday as a savior and/ or God. This is the point. Jesus never said that he was God. As we all know, Jesus was a credible and honest person. He wouldn’t tell a lie. If he never said that he is God, why do people consider him God and worship him?


He never did call himself a "God" , but his father who was a bit religious did. If you want to embark on such a subject then better get your facts right in the first place.
Posted by: chewwyUK

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 13:47

Im not old either! Notice how I posted something relating to the actual topic as apposed to telling somebody what to do. See the difference?

Keep it on topic MbakAditya for Rics sake!
Posted by: MbakAditya

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 14:00

I didn't tell you to do anything Fatso, I just said that there was something very false about people who "celebrate" Christmas or for that matter any Muslim or Hindu holidays but don't consider the meaning.People like that tend to live very false lives.

Not old? well you look quite old, too close to a gunung api perhaps.


Posted by: Oldman

Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 16:09

Quoting: MbakAditya
Quoting: Oldman
Jesus never said "I am GOD". As we all know, Jesus was a credible and honest person. He wouldn’t tell a lie. If he never said that he was God, why do people consider him God and worship him?


He never did call himself a "God" , but his father who was a bit religious did.


Please enlighten me: When did "Jesus' father" say that? What are your references, Mbak?


Quoting: MbakAditya
If you want to embark on such a subject then better get your facts right in the first place.


The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one true God, the one whom Jesus worshipped (see John 17: 3).

Peter said: “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.” (Acts 2:22).

It was God, therefore, who did the miracles through Jesus to convince people that Jesus was backed by God. Peter did not see the miracles as proof that Jesus is God.

We find here that Jesus was not co-equal with the Father, for Jesus said: “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28).

Therefore, although we hold a great love and respect for Jesus, we need to understand that he is not the all-powerful God that should be worshipped.

Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 16:31

sick chuck bucket! quick!!
Posted by: flingwing

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 16:39

".. having a war about religion is like having a fight over who's got the best imaginary friend." Supposedly uttered by none other than Yasser Arafat - Nobel Peace Prize (co-)winner and cold-blooded murderer.
Posted by: chewwyUK

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 16:51

Quoting: MbakAditya
I didn't tell you to do anything Fatso, I just said that there was something very false about people who "celebrate" Christmas or for that matter any Muslim or Hindu holidays but don't consider the meaning.People like that tend to live very false lives.

Not old? well you look quite old, too close to a gunung api perhaps.




Well celebrate "chewwymas" then don't hide behind and be an excuse. Have faith and follow it or take the other choice and don't subscribe to it and just have a quiet day at home with the family, but if you don't believe then don't be wet and celebrate christmas.

No of course you didnt tell me to do anything ... my command of english is very poor indeed. Clearly the above posting was not telling me to celebrate something other than christams and to stop being wet and and celebrating christmas.

and is fatso really the best you can come up with? come on I am sure you can come up with better than that.
Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 16:57

You did tell her to "fuck herself"

Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 17:05

Quoting: Capt. Mainwaring
You did tell her to "fuck herself"

but he did say it in the nicest possible way.

Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 17:17

Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: Capt. Mainwaring
You did tell her to "fuck herself"

but he did say it in the nicest possible way.



Yes, "go fuck yourself".

Posted by: chewwyUK

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 17:25

I am English and then still suffer from foul mouth syndrome. In my defense the posting was made pre 7am which is never when I am at my best. For the "go fuck yourself comment" I apologize it was most uncalled for.

However I still find it presumptuous when a total Stanger gives me advice on what to do and how to do it. One of the major reasons for me living in Indonesia is because I have a real problem with being told what to do ...

Anyway .. end of the matter.
Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 17:33

Bloody hell Chewwy, have you bought a Toshiba handrik?


Unconsciously though you are "told what to do" far more than you will ever realise in Indonesia just you don't realise it yet.
Posted by: emmajkt

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 27 Dec 07 19:30

Quoting: MbakAditya

That is what I like, an understanding of the true meaning of Xmas.

"its all very pagan like" - no Emma those people are all very pagan like, not Xmas.


yep i am just mention the 'interesting part' about christmas.

Christmas means nothing to me, and also the other religions celebration

Posted by: emmajkt

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 19:42

Quoting: MbakAditya
....People like that tend to live very false lives.


This is what i hate from religious people...

They always think lots of people, other than them, live very false lives. Religions its all about judging and judging other people.

You think you are so holy but you just being brainwashed by a crap called bible.
Posted by: The Prisoner

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 19:48

Shot straight into this thread after seeing the whole religion thing, expecting to see fireworks.

Nice not to be disappointed. I don't think I even need to stick my oar in. Which is just as well, because I could really upset people if I started...
Posted by: Shesca

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 19:56

More war???

TWO DAYS AFTER XMAS????

JEEEESS PEOPLE......
Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 20:18

Quoting: The Prisoner
Shot straight into this thread after seeing the whole religion thing, expecting to see fireworks.

Nice not to be disappointed. I don't think I even need to stick my oar in. Which is just as well, because I could really upset people if I started...


That's why oldman posted it in the first place.
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Jesus is not God. - 27 Dec 07 20:29

We don't have to be religious people to discuss this issue. All we need to do is to be open to others' ideas. If we agree, take them, if not, then kick them out of our mind.

If you think Jesus is God, worship him. On the other hand, if you think that Jesus is a human being just like us, then why bother to worship him?
Posted by: chewwyUK

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 05:54

Follow the gourd people!

BTW .. nice to have to popping in for the Christmas season Mr Prisoner.
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 07:02

I blame the whole Jesus thing on the Beavers myself!

Posted by: chewwyUK

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 07:42

ewwwww .. bloody beaver
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 09:51

Your pic is really interesting, Dilli. It opened my eyes wider. If Jesus had been God, he wouldn't have let people kill him that way.
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 10:12

It is obvious he is not God as Phil Collins found out!

Posted by: Dilli

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 10:23

I have invented a new type of "Holy Spirit"

Golden in colour because of his crackin' tan and arabic lineage,
Spring water because of his clarity of thought,
Grain because of his known love of bread,
Kept in a wooden barrel because he was nailed to a bit of wood,
40% proof because of the strength of his character...

JESUS WHISKY!

Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 12:31

Quoting: Oldman
We don't have to be religious people to discuss this issue. All we need to do is to be open to others' ideas. If we agree, take them, if not, then kick them out of our mind.

If you think Jesus is God, worship him. On the other hand, if you think that Jesus is a human being just like us, then why bother to worship him?


How very philosophical, I'm glad your here to point that out.
Abraham
Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 12:37

Quoting: Oldman
Your pic is really interesting, Dilli. It opened my eyes wider. If Jesus had been God, he wouldn't have let people kill him that way.


Abe, you're becoming most annoying at this time of goodwill to all men.

If God was God, why did he let the people kill him that way?

Remind me the translalation of "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani " according to Mark?
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 12:41

i'm still waiting for the punchline. hurry it up, Oldman!
Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 13:38

Quoting: KuKuKaChu
i'm still waiting for the punchline. hurry it up, Oldman!


185.125 ?
Posted by: Sammy Jankis

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 28 Dec 07 14:10

Quoting: Oldman
Today, 2007 years ago, a great figure was born. He was Jesus or Isa (Peace Be Upon Him). Millions of people are celebrating his birthday today. The question is:

Is he a God or just a human being like us?

Let’s discuss this topic objectively regardless our religions.

Thank you.


Wrong. Jeebus wasn't born in December, he was likely born in October. Anyways, I'll try my best to keep this thread serious.

Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 28 Dec 07 14:39

There is something rather worrying about your pussy.
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 18:06

Quoting: Capt. Mainwaring
Quoting: Oldman
Your pic is really interesting, Dilli. It opened my eyes wider. If Jesus had been God, he wouldn't have let people kill him that way.


If God was God, why did he let the people kill him that way?


Because Jesus was not God.
Anyway, nice to know you, Capt. Abraham. smile
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 18:21

Quoting: KuKuKaChu
i'm still waiting for the punchline. hurry it up, Oldman!


Fine, let's move on ...

All of the writers of the Bible believed that Jesus was not God. The idea that Jesus is God did not become part of Christian belief until after the Bible was written, and took many centuries to become part of the faith of Christians. The idea that Jesus is God is a “new” idea.

All the Bible writers had a higher view of Jesus, but none of the writers believed that Jesus is God. The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one true God, the one whom Jesus worshipped (see John 17: 3).

Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Jesus is not God. - 28 Dec 07 18:22

Quoting: Oldman
Quoting: Capt. Mainwaring
Quoting: Oldman
Your pic is really interesting, Dilli. It opened my eyes wider. If Jesus had been God, he wouldn't have let people kill him that way.


If God was God, why did he let the people kill him that way?


Because Jesus was not God.
Anyway, nice to know you, Capt. Abraham. smile


And how on earth do you know , unless of course you are the Virgin Mandy?
Posted by: brad

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 29 Dec 07 02:20

These so called holy books???
Cute historical stories written by chauvinist cult leaders which evolve into religions.
Interesting that everything actually true has undeniable proof or has impirical evidence. Oh that's right, it's all founded on blind faith - emphasis on blind.
We teach our children about boogie men, santa claus, the tooth fairy and others; but after a certain age of reason they're told the truth about all these fantasies.
Is the light dawning yet?
Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 29 Dec 07 03:00

Quoting: brad
These so called holy books???
Cute historical stories written by chauvinist cult leaders which evolve into religions.
Interesting that everything actually true has undeniable proof or has impirical evidence. Oh that's right, it's all founded on blind faith - emphasis on blind.
We teach our children about boogie men, santa claus, the tooth fairy and others; but after a certain age of reason they're told the truth about all these fantasies.
Is the light dawning yet?


run that by me one more time.
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 29 Dec 07 14:07

Since there are no members worhipping Jesus, then : CASE CLOSED!
Posted by: Sammy Jankis

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 29 Dec 07 14:18

Maybe in your mind the case is closed. For us in the real world, your sanity is still very much an open case... smile
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 29 Dec 07 14:42

Ok, let me move on with my sanity ...

For Peter, Jesus was a servant of God. Peter said: “God raised up his servant...” (Acts 3:26). The title servant refers to Jesus. This is clear from a previous passage where Peter declared: “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…” (Acts 3:13).

Here, as in Matthew 12:18, Jesus is the servant of God. Matthew tells us that Jesus was the same servant of God spoken of in Isaiah 42:1. So, according to Matthew and Peter, Jesus is not God, but God’s servant. The Old Testament repeatedly says that God is alone (e.g. Isaiah 45:5).

If Jesus was God, his disciples should have said this clearly. They were simply teaching what they had learnt from Jesus — that Jesus was not God but, rather, God’s servant.

Enough?

Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 29 Dec 07 14:50

Quoting: Oldman
Since there are no members worhipping Jesus, then : CASE CLOSED!


Why worship someone who is not God?

Bearing false witness and worshipping pop idols and all that.
Posted by: Capt. Mainwaring

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 29 Dec 07 14:53

Quoting: Oldman

If Jesus was God, his disciples should have said this clearly. They were simply teaching what they had learnt from Jesus — that Jesus was not God but, rather, God’s servant.

Enough?



Well at that point he wasn't was he? you bell end.


I've met a few people who thought they were God but we were inclined to ignore them at the time.
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 29 Dec 07 14:54

Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 29 Dec 07 14:57

The problem with worshippers is easily solved...

Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 29 Dec 07 15:19

Quoting: Dilli
The problem with worshippers is easily solved...



I like your sense of humor. dilli
Posted by: Shesca

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 29 Dec 07 15:24

Please dont encourage him...
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 29 Dec 07 15:25

I think the Pope should just own up and tell the world that Jesus was re-incarnated as Tony the Tiger from Kellogs Frosties Fame.

So much easier to believe!
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 08:46

Let's enlighten the Pope with this:


Jesus is Not All-Powerful, and Not All-Knowing

Christians and Muslims agree that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. The Gospels show that Jesus was not all-powerful, and not all-knowing, since he had some limitations.

Mark tells us in his gospel that Jesus was unable to do any powerful work in his hometown except few things: “He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.” (Mark 6:5).

Mark also tells us that when Jesus tried to heal a certain blind man, the man was not healed after the first attempt, and Jesus had to try a second time (see Mark 8:22-26).

Therefore, although we hold a great love and respect for Jesus, we need to understand that he is not the all-powerful God.

Mark’s Gospel also reveals that Jesus had limitations in his knowledge. In Mark 13:32, Jesus declared that he himself does not know when the last day will occur, but the Father alone knows that (see also Matthew 24:36).

Therefore, Jesus could not have been the all-knowing God.

Some will say that Jesus knew when the last day will occur, but he chose not to tell. But that complicates matters further. Jesus could have said that he knows but he does not wish to tell. Instead, he said that he does not know. We must believe him. Jesus does not lie at all.

The Gospel of Luke also reveals that Jesus had limited knowledge. Luke says that Jesus increased in wisdom (Luke 2:52). In Hebrews too (Hebrews 5:8) we read that Jesus learned obedience. But God’s knowledge and wisdom is always perfect, and God does not learn new things. He knows everything always. So, if Jesus learned something new, that proves that he did not know everything before that, and thus he was not God.

Can he become God later? No! Because there is only one God, and He is God from everlasting to everlasting (see Psalms 90:2).

Someone may say that Jesus was God but he took the form of a servant and therefore became limited. Well, that would mean that God changed. But God does not change. God said so according to Malachi 3:6.

Jesus never was God, and never will be. In the Bible, God declares: “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.” (Isaiah 43:10).

The Bible clearly shows that Jesus was not all-powerful and all-knowing as the true God should be.



Hope the Pope will read this.
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 08:57

Posted by: JESUS

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 09:16

A few close angel friends of mine popped in the morning for coffee and said that I was being discussed on Jakchat. Having read some of the verbous drivel being spouted my the one who calls himself oldman I feel the time is right to put an end to this matter once and for all.

I am happy to confirm for everybody that I am a type of god.

I would also like to make Dilli aware that we have our eye on you and the chances of you being allowed in up here are very slim. Change your ways and follow Celtic and we may change our minds

Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 09:18

Quote:
Change your ways and follow Celtic and we may change our minds




Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 09:26

At Last, I found a picture of the real Jesus....

Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 09:43

And his Mother.....



I know its been posted before but WTF!
Posted by: JESUS

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 09:56

I can assure you Paris Hilton did not qualify to be my mother as she failed the virginity test.
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 10:04

Quoting: JESUS
I can assure you Paris Hilton did not qualify to be my mother as she failed the virginity test.


Jesus, you and your mother may sit on that couch if you want while Dilli will be sitting in his banci armchair.

[img]http://www.motherearthplantnursery.com/images/2COUCHA[/img]
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 10:15

I couldn't upload the pic. Damn it. Jesus might have cursed me!
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 10:25

Do not take the lords chair in vain!

Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 10:28

I'll just drop this in here...


Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 10:40



Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 10:52

I do not understand the relevance of the above image.

I suppose I should read the Holy Bible for enlightenment.

Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 13:17

See, What you'll end up? That's the relevance!

[img]http://www.motherearthplantnursery.com/images/SKULLHEADVOODOO[/img]
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 13:40

Not very good at the embedding are we. Code looks OK so I have no idea what is stopping the image from showing.
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 14:15

Quoting: Dilli
Not very good at the embedding are we. Code looks OK so I have no idea what is stopping the image from showing.


I'll try another pic.

Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 30 Dec 07 14:17

That pic discribes how you'll end up if you are reading the bible while having a blowjob!
Posted by: Magpie

Re: Jesus is not God. - 19 Jan 08 20:15

You would have thought in these times, that knowing the Jesus was not actually born on 25th of December, we would change the date of Christmas to represent his real birth date, but then again that would mean informing the retail sector, who I am sure would have something to say, due to the unions having to get involved with regards to holiday pay and overtime. I hate Christmas it seems to remind me that I am no longer a child.
Posted by: Sammy Carlton

Re: Jesus is not God. - 19 Jan 08 21:44

This topic is full of SARA.... can offend Christian's religious feelings. Be aware.... most of westerners are Christians.
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Jesus is not God. - 19 Jan 08 22:05

But they do not take arms and punish if they are offended!

Most Christians can understand humour, after all they worship someone they believe is omnipotent, omniscient and controls everything!

If God truly existed, why did he not apply Happy Hour prices on all of my Bar Bill tonight!

I rest my case!
Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Jesus is not God. - 20 Jan 08 00:44

Christians should expect to be ridiculed for their beliefs - it says as much in the Bible (which gives me the horn by the way, especially the psalms).
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Jesus is not God. - 20 Jan 08 06:14

Quoting: Sammy Carlton
This topic is full of SARA.... can offend Christian's religious feelings. Be aware.... most of westerners are Christians.

most westerners with half a brain could not give a fuck about religion.

many westerners see religion as the source of most social and political conflict.

some westerners would like to see religion banned, and its adherants given proper medical attention.
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Jesus is not God. - 20 Jan 08 06:40

Quote:
its adherants given proper medical attention


Along with beer, sodomy and a party hat! Just so we can identify them as they slur their words, walk awkwardly and look as stupid as they actualy are!
Posted by: I die enjoy

Re: Jesus is not God. - 20 Jan 08 11:18

Roy's hair: I detect a whiff of plagiarism. Christopher Hitchens, that well-known uber intelligent (and don't he know it) cunt of an atheist has brought up that point in various interviews and articles.
kukukachu---"Some" i'll give you, "many" and "most" are moving into tired generalization territory.

Sorry to critique frequent contributors. Probably not the done thing. I noticed that when it was done to that horrible Riccardo, he removed himself from the airwaves.
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Jesus is not God. - 20 Jan 08 11:20

Some members believe in Jesus as God now. Weird!
Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Jesus is not God. - 20 Jan 08 12:12

Clapton isn't God
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Jesus is not God. - 20 Jan 08 14:37

Who is?
Posted by: Magpie

Re: Jesus is not God. - 20 Jan 08 20:40

Kevin Keegan
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Jesus is not God. - 20 Jan 08 22:25

Who else?
Posted by: Piss Salon

Re: Jesus is not God. - 21 Jan 08 00:23

Roy's Hair and Kuku had it spot on, but Dilli put it best.

I Die Enjoy, how can you disagree with the word 'most' in "most westerners with half a brain could not give a fuck about religion."
Posted by: Rain

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 09 Feb 08 11:29

truly pointless being discussed,for some reasons.
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 10 Feb 08 22:37

So, you believe that Jesus is God?
Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 10 Feb 08 23:05

The Son of God surely? Meek and mild. He gaveth his life so that I may fritter away my life looking at cum drunk sluts on pages to the left of Jak Chat. Amen.
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 10 Feb 08 23:08

Beautifully written.
Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 10 Feb 08 23:14


I wish to speak tonight from the book of foreplay, verse 9 chapter 4:





Foreplay
Heard it all before?

I know what you're thinking. Foreplay. I know how to do that. But there's always something, somewhere you can learn. Are you aware of the importance of teasing? Can you foreplay talk your partner into acting out your wishes? No one is an expert. Not even us. If you have any foreplay ideas, even any little quirky or tempting tidbits, let us know and we'll print it here.
Why Foreplay?

Generally guys tend to want to skip over foreplay to get straight to sex. If, for instance, you're a guy and you try to go straight to intercourse, first of all you're going to have physical problems. The vagina has erectile tissue (like the penis) which needs to fill with blood to accommodate penetration. Otherwise penetration will be difficult and uncomfortable. Without foreplay her vagina won't have secreted any natural lubricant either, making penetration difficult, painful and possibly causing small tears in the vaginal tissue. Not good.
On top of all this is the emotional readiness. If you try go straight from watching football to intercourse, you'll probably fail. Women like a lot of talking, mood setting and tenderness before sex. This gets her mind (the most important sexual organ, its often said) ready as well as her body.
Basic Foreplay

There's a million different ways you can foreplay. Here we'll give you some basic ideas, but invent your own. Let your imagination run wild.

Talking / seduction
Unless you have magical powers of silent seduction, chances are sex will begin with some kind of conversation. You can discuss the things you like about each other, the qualities you like or some nice things they've done in the past. You can talk about what you'd like to do, or discuss some fantasy you could have together - imagine yourselves as strangers meeting on a tropical island and how and where you'd get together for some hot beach sex. Take turns directing the story and see how long you can hold out. For more on talking see foreplay talk below.

Kissing
Never underestimate the power of the kiss. A deep, passionate kiss can work wonders for blood flow. And deep doesn't have to mean deep tonguing, just deep and passionate. Save the tongue bath for the clitoris. Look deep into her eyes, run your fingers through her hair and down across her cheeks. Also don't just do this before sex. Do it any time, in the middle of the day, on the bus, when you're saying goodbye. If you only kiss passionately when you want sex, your partner may see kissing as a signal that you just want sex, not kissing.
Spend a lot of time exploring kissing - nipping at lips and tongue, cheeks, earlobes, neck, fingers, hands, toes, the whole body.

Tickling
Which is a great way to lead to:

Massaging
Probably the best way to lead from foreplay to sex. Give your partner a long, soothing, gentle, all over body massage and you'll both be yearning for sex.
Concentrate on the back, neck and shoulders. As well as using your hands to soothingly caress these areas, lay down lots of kisses in between. For seriously good massaging, use massage oil, scented with your favourite fragrance. Its also fantastic for soothing aching muscles and keeping your body feeling good.
Stay away from genital areas initially. Massage the whole body, brush near the genitals if you like, but don't touch them yet. You want to tease, tease, tease:
Teasing

Sometimes a quickie can be great, but generally, the more time you spend foreplaying, teasing, and not touching any genital area, the more fantastic the sex will be. Think of it like winding up a spring. The more you wind it up, the more spring you're going to get out of it.
Say you're the woman and you want to tease your male partner. Spend a lot of time hugging and caressing his body, all over. Move close around his hips, legs, inner thighs. Brush over his penis but don't touch it. Go really close but don't touch! If he tries to drag your hands onto his penis, bat his hands away. Then keep going, teasing and teasing until you both can't stand it anymore. When you finally do touch him it'll be far more exciting for both of you.

For guys, use the same thing for your female partner. For instance, if you're planning on stroking her clitoris, the more time you spend caressing, massaging her whole body without touching her clit, the bigger the orgasm is going to be when you finally do touch her clit. Tease, tease, tease. Run your hands close to her clit and vagina but don't touch them directly. Do this for as long as you can. If she begs you to touch her clit or tries to drag your hand down there, don't. Don't give in. Tease her more.
So, here's a breakdown:
foreplay, kiss, caress, massage
brush your hands near her clit / labia / vagina but don't touch them directly
massage hips, inner thighs, belly
keep doing this for some time
if she begs you to touch her clit, don't
don't give in
if she tries to drag your hand onto her clit, don't
keep teasing and teasing and teasing
finally, after lots of teasing, start stroking her clit

Every moment you delay contact with her clit makes her more aroused. The more you tease, the more worked up she'll be, the more her genital area will fill with blood, and the bigger her orgasm will be. More teasing = bigger orgasm
Is oral sex foreplay?

Many people see foreplay as any sex activity except intercourse. Oral sex, clit stimulation and mutual masturbation are considered foreplay by some. We, on the other hand, consider foreplay as anything that doesn't involve genital contact - kissing, talking, massaging, dancing, seducing, talking dirty, roleplay and so on. We consider anything that involves touching the genitals to be sex - oral sex, clit sex, manual sex (hands on genitals). Now we're not going to get into any extended argument about definitions, but we consider these to be 'main course' activities, not starters. Anything that has a good chance of leading to orgasm, we would consider 'sex', regardless of whether intercourse is involved. Some people may still believe that only intercourse can truly be called 'sex' - most likely the people who've never heard of the clitoris or the g spot.
So no, oral sex is not foreplay, its sex (we reckon). It's not called oral foreplay! By all means, have oral sex, but do it after lots of actual foreplay.
Foreplay Talk

Another interesting little idea is for one partner to control the foreplay verbally. One partner is the talker, one is the doer. Say you (the woman) are the talker. You sit down and start describing what you want him to do. Start with clothes on. At first tell him to do various non-sex things like walk around the room, move objects about, turn on music etc. Be as descriptive as possible. Then call him over to you and ask him to attend to your needs, massage you, kiss various parts of your body etc etc. Build up gradually to taking off one item of clothing at a time - slowly. You can keep this talk going right up through normal foreplay and into sex if you both agree to it.
Then next time you can reverse it. Say you (the man) are the talker and she is the doer. You sit down and direct her every move. Ask her to stand up, turn around, put her hands on her hips, rotate her hips slowly, then turn back to face you, crouch on the ground etc etc. Ask her to assume various poses you like, then call her over to dance in front of you - but no touching at first. Describe in detail what you want her to do. Again build slowly up to foreplay touching and keep the commands coming, right through into sex if you want.

To take this another step further, you can command your partner to SAY certain things rather than doing things. So, for instance, you (the man) say to your partner 'tell me you want me put my hand on your hip'. Then she says as much, and you continue, 'Now say you want me to run my hand up to your waist'. Go for it! You can do this right up to sex if you both want.
Yet another variation is to have talk-only foreplay about what you want to happen in the future, so for instance, you (the woman) say 'Tell me that when we get home, you want to lie me down and slowly massage my shoulders'. Then he has to say exactly that and you continue, 'now tell me that after the shoulder massage you want to run your fingers through my hair and kiss me deeply'. Keep talking and describing right up to sex if you want.
Because this type of foreplay talk doesn't have to involve any actual sex touching, you can start doing this out in public - its just talking! On a bus, in a park, nightclub, bar, restaurant etc.

Remember that women are more verbal than men so when it comes to sex or foreplay, talking can be an important part of the experience, and can result in more sex pleasure for both of you. Women also love to read about erotic encounters, and sex fantasies so you can read erotica together to give you ideas and discuss the things you like.
Roleplay

Another foreplay favourite. This can be done in the bedroom or started out in public if you feel like it. Pick roles for each other and act them out. The classic ones are pick up or seduction situations where one partner acts the role of say barworker and the other partner tries to pick her/him up. Do this in your bedroom, dress up, set up a bar on the table. Use your imagination. Take turns being the wooer and the wooed.
Other scenes might be co-workers meeting over the photocopier, boss / employee doing overtime together, doctor / patient examinations, etc etc. Dress up and go crazy! For serious roleplay foreplaying, dress up in your outfits and go out in public - bar / nightclub / restaurant / park / beach. Maintain your character the whole time, even when you get home.
Meeting as strangers

Another classic foreplay build up. No need to dress up for this one. Arrange to meet in a nightclub but pretend to not know each other. One partner has to seduce the other. Don't make it easy for her/him. Make them really work for it. Then when you finally let her/him onto you, be the horniest couple on the dance floor. Let the crowd stare and make them jealous!

Got any more foreplay ideas? Let us know
Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 10 Feb 08 23:15

Here endeth the lesson. Hallelujah and Amen brothers.
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 11 Feb 08 07:29

Ask the Archmullah of the UK for more information on this subject!



He seems to know what it's all about!
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 14:49

OK. Who else believes that Jesus is GOD?
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 15:03

He is not!

I have the proof!


Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 15:14

Quoting: Dilli
He is not!

I have the proof!




Repost!

Post something sillier, Dilli!
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 15:25

I was bored with the repetitive question which I feel you wil not get an straight answer upon.
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 15:37

In addition I am also an immoral atheist and deny the existence of God, because I HATE him. So I refuse to acknowledge this question!

Note, be very afraid because I actively persecute evangelical christians!

Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 15:38

Quoting: Dilli
In addition I am also an immoral atheist and deny the existence of God, because I HATE him. So I refuse to acknowledge this question!

Note, be very afraid because I actively persecute evangelical christians!



So, you are a horny atheist, Dilli?
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 15:52

Not really, I'm the kind of atheist who find's people who will not question what they believe to be difficult.

Whether they believe that there is a God or that there is not, is irrelevant but I find people who tell me what I have to believe to be intolerable.

My atheism can be summed up as "Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke, and even if they can, Fuck 'em anyway"!

Beware, I may smite someones arse today if they upset me!

Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 16:01

And just for the record..

My dad was agnostic and my mum was an atheist, they didn't know which religion not to bring me up in....

Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 16:03

To further clarify I don't consider my point of view to be agnostic - to me that suggests a certain indecision, giving existence of God a certain level of probability. I think of myself as an atheist, not through a dogmatic belief system, but as my logical conclusion after examining as much of the evidence as I can comprehend.

When I said, "Show me some evidence of God and then we can talk", that was meant to imply that I accept God cannot be disproved, not that I have any indecision. The Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Cosmic Teacup cannot be disproved either. It does not mean I consider those suggestions likely.

Calling myself agnostic would be to give the impression I am less ambivalent to the existence of God than I really am. If you flat out ask me if I think there is a God, my answer would be "No", not "Maybe yes, maybe no, we will never know"

Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 17:30

The four atheist horsemen of the apocalypse go for it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuyUz2XLp1E

Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 18:14

If you want to hedge your bets viz a vis the existence of the great bearded one then there's always Pascal's Wager to comfort you:
------------------------------------------------------------------

* You live as though God exists.
o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing and lose nothing.

* You live as though God does not exist.
o If God exists, the text is unspecified, but it could be implied that you go to limbo, purgatory, or hell: your loss is either null or infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing and lose nothing.

With these possibilities, and the principles of statistics, Pascal attempted to demonstrate that the only prudent course of action is to live as if God exists. It is a simple application of game theory (to which Pascal had made important contributions).

Another way of portraying the Wager is as a decision under uncertainty with the values of the following decision matrix:
God exists (G) God does not exist (~G)
Living as if God exists (B) +∞ (heaven) −N (none)
Living as if God does not exist (~B) ?? (not specified, perhaps N (limbo/purgatory) or −∞ (hell)) +N (none)

Given these values, the option of living as if God exists(B) dominates the option of living as if God does not exist (~B). In other words, the expected value gained by choosing B is always greater than or equal to that of choosing ~B, regardless of the likelihood that God exists.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

This is rather opportunistic and totally non-empirical ontology though. Doesn't really get to grips with explaining the dinosaur problem does it? The chances of that minus infinity and of Hell existing would have to be approaching absolute zero around now.I say hate God. Love thy enemy? An ultimately immoral philosophy. However there's always the atheists wager:
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Atheist's Wager

A specific argument challenging the assumption that belief is rewarded is known as the Atheist's Wager. While Pascal suggested that it is better to take the chance of believing in a god that might not exist rather than to risk losing infinite happiness by disbelieving in a god that does, the Atheist's Wager suggests that:

You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in God. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, he may judge you on your merits coupled with your commitments, and not just on whether or not you believed in him.[4]

It is supposed that a god may exist that will reward disbelief or punish belief. The atheist's wager asserts that in the absence of clear knowledge of what, if anything, will benefit the gambler's hereafter, it is better to concentrate on improving conditions in the present.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
That sounds much more humane doesn't it?
Posted by: Rain

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 19:24

yes.he is a God.
Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 19:32

He's was a man too Rain, that's kind of the whole point of the story.
Posted by: Rain

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 20:27

Mmmhhhhhmmm...pointless!
Posted by: flingwing

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 17 Feb 08 21:04

Quoting: Dilli
I think of myself as an atheist . . . as my logical conclusion after examining as much of the evidence as I can comprehend.

Meant more to understand what you've seen/experienced rather than a set-up, what kinds of evidence have you examined?
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 18 Feb 08 06:55

The Bible, Dawkins (et al) William James, and various other arguments based on the "appeal to consequences"
Posted by: flingwing

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 18 Feb 08 08:12

Quoting: Dilli
. . . arguments based on the "appeal to consequences"

So your beliefs about the nature of the universe are based on the rejection of unspecified warnings from other people, some of whom lived hundreds and thousands of years ago? That's kind of reactionary, isn't it?

Let me re-frame this thread's question: being an agnostic isn't about Jesus' role. It's about whether or not you think there is a supreme/sublime intelligence in the universe. And forget "G-D". It's just a word invented to make us comfortable. Say it and 99 percent of people would think of some bearded gent surrounded by clouds. We like being able to wrap our tiny minds around the the *known* universe which is billions of light years wide.

If you look at the scale of the universe, planets in a solar system rotating around a sun, solar systems in a galaxy rotating around its center, and galaxies rotating something even more unknowable, that should be enough to make one wonder how the whole thing hangs together.

Then there is the observable condition that all those spinning and rotating planets, stars, and galaxies don't *regularly* collide. What provided the drive to put those planets in place, start them spinning, and now keeps them there?

If someone wants to fall back on the so-called "big bang" theory, I would ask, "so what caused the initial spark?". Further, what caused all the rules of the universe, like gravity, that maintains physical order in this place?

If the only depth one considers is from looking at the bottom of empty beer bottles, then it's understandable one might say the world "just happened".

Who cares whether there is a so-called God or not? But to say there isn't some supreme intelligence in this world is, IMO, akin to whistling past the graveyard.

Have another nice trip around the sun today smile
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 18 Feb 08 08:29

Easily answered. I have considered these many options and as I said "I'm the kind of atheist who find's people who will not question what they believe to be difficult."

I have questioned, and to an extent still do.

Supreme intelligence need not be a single sentinent being. There a many examples of colony or swarm intellligence and these models can also be applied in a physical science/galactic sense if one really wanted.

As for discussion on the big bang, I am neither a particle physicist nor an astronomer so I would be unable to argue positively on the theory.

And, since it's cloudy and raining, my 93 million mile trip has been put on hold at least until tomorrow.

Note: The whole reason for the thread swerving in this direction was to piss Oldman off a bit so we could revel in his drivel)
Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 18 Feb 08 08:33

and this supreme intelligence was just always there was it? Classic infinite regress of the faithful, ascribing anthropomorphic causes to natural processes. Explaining something as vastly complex as the universe with something that would have to be even more complex just doesn't work. Bottom up natural selection/physics is the only plausible explanation for the depth and breadth of existence. And for your information the universe isn't perfect, neither in terms of physics (galaxies collide into each other all the time in fact), or biology (we ourselves are by no means perfect, prone to lower back pain - a consequence of walking on all fours until recently and with eyes that are amazing but not designed perfectly, and containing thousands and thousands of now redundant genes) only evolution from the bottom up can explain this stuff coherently. Supreme intelligence? Such a theory explains precisely nothing because such intelligence would have to be even more complex than what is being created. Also, as I pointed out above, this intelligence didn't do a particularly great job, just take the solar system, only our own planet can sustain life and even vast swathes of the Earth can't do it very well. Not a fantastic design really. I give your intelligence a C+
Posted by: Ena

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 18 Feb 08 10:16

someobody said to me that no-ones an athiest mid orgasm.

!!
Oh my.
Posted by: Dilli

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 18 Feb 08 10:22

Have you any experience in this matter Ena?

"Pray" (pardon the pun) share this with us.
Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 18 Feb 08 12:46

Personally I say, "Naturally select on THIS baby," when I'm in the vinegar strokes
Posted by: Ena

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 18 Feb 08 14:25

^ Hotttttttttttttttttt grin grin
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 18 Feb 08 14:30

Wah, he's so ya ya.
Posted by: Ena

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 18 Feb 08 18:13


http://www.davidicke.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18

David has the answers everybody.hiss
Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 18 Feb 08 21:38

Oh bloody nora, not David bloody Icke, ex footy commentator and age of Aquarius loon. He's a twat and his philosophy an incoherent mix of new age psycho babble, far fetched conspiracy theory and good ol' antisemitism. He can stick his Elders of Zion bollocks up his flabby ex BBC Grandstand arse.
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 18 Feb 08 22:27

Guys, based on all your posts above, it's getting clearer and clearer to me that Jesus is not GOD since he can't create this universe. He's just a human being like everybody else!
Posted by: KuKuKaChuModerator

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 19 Feb 08 06:53

well, that's that then, isn't it! i'll go tell everyone else!
Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 19 Feb 08 09:54

Jesus probably did not even exist. Christianity is ripped off age old Egyptian and Greek myths based on astrology and the virgin birth, 3 wise men, resurrection after 3 days, miracles etc etc were all used umpteen times before the Jesus myth arrived.
Posted by: Oldman

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 19 Feb 08 10:37

Quoting: KuKuKaChu
well, that's that then, isn't it! i'll go tell everyone else!


Go tell your folks on this. Please enlighten them.
Posted by: Roy's Hair

Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? - 19 Feb 08 11:14

I don't think Ku's folks are Christian, simple wife mathematics leads me to this conclusion.