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#69775 - 17 Feb 08 16:03 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Dilli]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
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To further clarify I don't consider my point of view to be agnostic - to me that suggests a certain indecision, giving existence of God a certain level of probability. I think of myself as an atheist, not through a dogmatic belief system, but as my logical conclusion after examining as much of the evidence as I can comprehend.

When I said, "Show me some evidence of God and then we can talk", that was meant to imply that I accept God cannot be disproved, not that I have any indecision. The Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Cosmic Teacup cannot be disproved either. It does not mean I consider those suggestions likely.

Calling myself agnostic would be to give the impression I am less ambivalent to the existence of God than I really am. If you flat out ask me if I think there is a God, my answer would be "No", not "Maybe yes, maybe no, we will never know"

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#69780 - 17 Feb 08 17:30 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Dilli]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
The four atheist horsemen of the apocalypse go for it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuyUz2XLp1E

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#69782 - 17 Feb 08 18:14 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Roy's Hair]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
If you want to hedge your bets viz a vis the existence of the great bearded one then there's always Pascal's Wager to comfort you:
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* You live as though God exists.
o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing and lose nothing.

* You live as though God does not exist.
o If God exists, the text is unspecified, but it could be implied that you go to limbo, purgatory, or hell: your loss is either null or infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing and lose nothing.

With these possibilities, and the principles of statistics, Pascal attempted to demonstrate that the only prudent course of action is to live as if God exists. It is a simple application of game theory (to which Pascal had made important contributions).

Another way of portraying the Wager is as a decision under uncertainty with the values of the following decision matrix:
God exists (G) God does not exist (~G)
Living as if God exists (B) +∞ (heaven) −N (none)
Living as if God does not exist (~B) ?? (not specified, perhaps N (limbo/purgatory) or −∞ (hell)) +N (none)

Given these values, the option of living as if God exists(B) dominates the option of living as if God does not exist (~B). In other words, the expected value gained by choosing B is always greater than or equal to that of choosing ~B, regardless of the likelihood that God exists.


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This is rather opportunistic and totally non-empirical ontology though. Doesn't really get to grips with explaining the dinosaur problem does it? The chances of that minus infinity and of Hell existing would have to be approaching absolute zero around now.I say hate God. Love thy enemy? An ultimately immoral philosophy. However there's always the atheists wager:
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Atheist's Wager

A specific argument challenging the assumption that belief is rewarded is known as the Atheist's Wager. While Pascal suggested that it is better to take the chance of believing in a god that might not exist rather than to risk losing infinite happiness by disbelieving in a god that does, the Atheist's Wager suggests that:

You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in God. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, he may judge you on your merits coupled with your commitments, and not just on whether or not you believed in him.[4]

It is supposed that a god may exist that will reward disbelief or punish belief. The atheist's wager asserts that in the absence of clear knowledge of what, if anything, will benefit the gambler's hereafter, it is better to concentrate on improving conditions in the present.
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That sounds much more humane doesn't it?
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#69785 - 17 Feb 08 19:24 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Roy's Hair]
Rain Offline
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Registered: 07 Feb 08
Posts: 38
Loc: Jakarta, Indonesia
yes.he is a God.

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#69786 - 17 Feb 08 19:32 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Rain]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
He's was a man too Rain, that's kind of the whole point of the story.
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#69790 - 17 Feb 08 20:27 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Roy's Hair]
Rain Offline
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Registered: 07 Feb 08
Posts: 38
Loc: Jakarta, Indonesia
Mmmhhhhhmmm...pointless!

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#69793 - 17 Feb 08 21:04 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Dilli]
flingwing Offline
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Registered: 28 May 07
Posts: 188
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: Dilli
I think of myself as an atheist . . . as my logical conclusion after examining as much of the evidence as I can comprehend.

Meant more to understand what you've seen/experienced rather than a set-up, what kinds of evidence have you examined?

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#69797 - 18 Feb 08 06:55 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: flingwing]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
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The Bible, Dawkins (et al) William James, and various other arguments based on the "appeal to consequences"
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#69802 - 18 Feb 08 08:12 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Dilli]
flingwing Offline
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Registered: 28 May 07
Posts: 188
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: Dilli
. . . arguments based on the "appeal to consequences"

So your beliefs about the nature of the universe are based on the rejection of unspecified warnings from other people, some of whom lived hundreds and thousands of years ago? That's kind of reactionary, isn't it?

Let me re-frame this thread's question: being an agnostic isn't about Jesus' role. It's about whether or not you think there is a supreme/sublime intelligence in the universe. And forget "G-D". It's just a word invented to make us comfortable. Say it and 99 percent of people would think of some bearded gent surrounded by clouds. We like being able to wrap our tiny minds around the the *known* universe which is billions of light years wide.

If you look at the scale of the universe, planets in a solar system rotating around a sun, solar systems in a galaxy rotating around its center, and galaxies rotating something even more unknowable, that should be enough to make one wonder how the whole thing hangs together.

Then there is the observable condition that all those spinning and rotating planets, stars, and galaxies don't *regularly* collide. What provided the drive to put those planets in place, start them spinning, and now keeps them there?

If someone wants to fall back on the so-called "big bang" theory, I would ask, "so what caused the initial spark?". Further, what caused all the rules of the universe, like gravity, that maintains physical order in this place?

If the only depth one considers is from looking at the bottom of empty beer bottles, then it's understandable one might say the world "just happened".

Who cares whether there is a so-called God or not? But to say there isn't some supreme intelligence in this world is, IMO, akin to whistling past the graveyard.

Have another nice trip around the sun today smile

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#69804 - 18 Feb 08 08:29 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: flingwing]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Easily answered. I have considered these many options and as I said "I'm the kind of atheist who find's people who will not question what they believe to be difficult."

I have questioned, and to an extent still do.

Supreme intelligence need not be a single sentinent being. There a many examples of colony or swarm intellligence and these models can also be applied in a physical science/galactic sense if one really wanted.

As for discussion on the big bang, I am neither a particle physicist nor an astronomer so I would be unable to argue positively on the theory.

And, since it's cloudy and raining, my 93 million mile trip has been put on hold at least until tomorrow.

Note: The whole reason for the thread swerving in this direction was to piss Oldman off a bit so we could revel in his drivel)
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#69806 - 18 Feb 08 08:33 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: flingwing]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
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Loc: jakarta
and this supreme intelligence was just always there was it? Classic infinite regress of the faithful, ascribing anthropomorphic causes to natural processes. Explaining something as vastly complex as the universe with something that would have to be even more complex just doesn't work. Bottom up natural selection/physics is the only plausible explanation for the depth and breadth of existence. And for your information the universe isn't perfect, neither in terms of physics (galaxies collide into each other all the time in fact), or biology (we ourselves are by no means perfect, prone to lower back pain - a consequence of walking on all fours until recently and with eyes that are amazing but not designed perfectly, and containing thousands and thousands of now redundant genes) only evolution from the bottom up can explain this stuff coherently. Supreme intelligence? Such a theory explains precisely nothing because such intelligence would have to be even more complex than what is being created. Also, as I pointed out above, this intelligence didn't do a particularly great job, just take the solar system, only our own planet can sustain life and even vast swathes of the Earth can't do it very well. Not a fantastic design really. I give your intelligence a C+
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#69814 - 18 Feb 08 10:16 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Roy's Hair]
Ena Offline
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Registered: 26 Nov 05
Posts: 765
Loc: Sydney
someobody said to me that no-ones an athiest mid orgasm.

!!
Oh my.
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#69816 - 18 Feb 08 10:22 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Ena]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
Have you any experience in this matter Ena?

"Pray" (pardon the pun) share this with us.
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#69819 - 18 Feb 08 12:46 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Dilli]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Personally I say, "Naturally select on THIS baby," when I'm in the vinegar strokes
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#69829 - 18 Feb 08 14:25 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Roy's Hair]
Ena Offline
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Registered: 26 Nov 05
Posts: 765
Loc: Sydney
^ Hotttttttttttttttttt grin grin
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#69830 - 18 Feb 08 14:30 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Ena]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Wah, he's so ya ya.
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#69842 - 18 Feb 08 18:13 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Ena Offline
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Registered: 26 Nov 05
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Loc: Sydney

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18

David has the answers everybody.hiss


Edited by Ena (18 Feb 08 18:20)
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#69848 - 18 Feb 08 21:38 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Ena]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Oh bloody nora, not David bloody Icke, ex footy commentator and age of Aquarius loon. He's a twat and his philosophy an incoherent mix of new age psycho babble, far fetched conspiracy theory and good ol' antisemitism. He can stick his Elders of Zion bollocks up his flabby ex BBC Grandstand arse.
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#69851 - 18 Feb 08 22:27 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Roy's Hair]
Oldman Offline
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Registered: 24 Dec 07
Posts: 210
Loc: Jakarta
Guys, based on all your posts above, it's getting clearer and clearer to me that Jesus is not GOD since he can't create this universe. He's just a human being like everybody else!
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#69856 - 19 Feb 08 06:53 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Oldman]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
well, that's that then, isn't it! i'll go tell everyone else!
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#69857 - 19 Feb 08 09:54 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Jesus probably did not even exist. Christianity is ripped off age old Egyptian and Greek myths based on astrology and the virgin birth, 3 wise men, resurrection after 3 days, miracles etc etc were all used umpteen times before the Jesus myth arrived.
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#69862 - 19 Feb 08 10:37 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Oldman Offline
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Registered: 24 Dec 07
Posts: 210
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
well, that's that then, isn't it! i'll go tell everyone else!


Go tell your folks on this. Please enlighten them.
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#69863 - 19 Feb 08 11:14 Re: Is Jesus a God or Just a Human Being? [Re: Oldman]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
I don't think Ku's folks are Christian, simple wife mathematics leads me to this conclusion.
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