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#68438 - 19 Jan 08 23:04 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Roy's Hair]
Oldman Offline
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Registered: 24 Dec 07
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Get well soon, Pak Harto.
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#68439 - 20 Jan 08 00:30 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Oldman]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
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Do you owe this guy money or something Oldman?
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#68467 - 20 Jan 08 11:24 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Roy's Hair]
Oldman Offline
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Quoting: Roy's hair
Do you owe this guy money or something Oldman?

He's a great man! That's all.
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#68478 - 20 Jan 08 12:13 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Oldman]
Roy's Hair Offline
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and what, pray tell, do you base that conclusion on?
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#68496 - 20 Jan 08 14:34 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Roy's Hair]
Oldman Offline
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Registered: 24 Dec 07
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He prevented this country to be communist and atheist.
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#68499 - 20 Jan 08 14:38 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Oldman]
Dilli Offline
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Shite, this is a Secular Country and that occurred before Suharto!
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#68502 - 20 Jan 08 14:41 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Dilli]
Oldman Offline
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Registered: 24 Dec 07
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Who told you that this country is secular?
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#68506 - 20 Jan 08 15:25 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Oldman]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09 Oct 05
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Quoting: Oldman
He prevented this country to be communist and atheist.

you say that like it was a good thing.

c/f china, vietnam, dll.
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#68515 - 20 Jan 08 22:31 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Oldman Offline
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Registered: 24 Dec 07
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We should thank pak Harto for that.
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#68522 - 21 Jan 08 01:08 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Oldman]
Roy's Hair Offline
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you clearly don't even know what the word secular means
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#68534 - 21 Jan 08 10:10 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Roy's Hair]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
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I see we got a mention in Metromad...

Trying to gauge public opinion last week on everyone's favorite English-language personal-abuse forum, Jak Chat, I found mixed sentiments in evidence. There were those trying to cast the man's achievements as, "The father of development," in a favorable light to someone else's prediction that, "If you gave this man an enema you could bury him in a matchbox," (actually that one was mine but keep it under your hat).

Some wit had posted up a little vignette involving SBY visiting the old boy in hospital and the ex-president wheezing like Darth Vader through his ventilator, "SBY... I am your father." Very witty Oscar, although possibly there is a serious point here behind the jape, namely Susilo BY's rather risible and offensive suggestion that the whole nation pray for Suharto. Not national awakening but a national wake.

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#68535 - 21 Jan 08 10:15 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Dilli]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Er... I've no idea who does that stultifyingly ill informed column. Should be keel hauled.
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#68558 - 21 Jan 08 13:28 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Roy's Hair]
Oldman Offline
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Registered: 24 Dec 07
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Quoting: Roy's hair
you clearly don't even know what the word secular means


How can you judge that Indonesia is a secular country?
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#68560 - 21 Jan 08 14:54 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Oldman]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Well it isn't in practice of course , but theoretically and constitutionally it is. Again, you clearly don't know what the word means. I suggest you look it up in a dictionary.
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#68585 - 22 Jan 08 09:44 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Roy's Hair]
Oldman Offline
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Registered: 24 Dec 07
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The first principle of Pancasila says "Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa".
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#68587 - 22 Jan 08 09:55 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Oldman]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Yes but you've got more than one to go for here. This is not a theocracy. This country's political systems and judiciary are ostensibly secular - although not entirely as you can't be an atheist, scientologist etc. Secularism is about freedom as opposed to religious tyranny - which is where this country of sheep is heading.
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#68629 - 22 Jan 08 23:21 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Roy's Hair]
Oldman Offline
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It's heading to a religious country. I wouldn't say a theocracy, anyway.
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#68635 - 23 Jan 08 08:39 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Oldman]
flingwing Offline
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Registered: 28 May 07
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Quoting: Oldman
It's heading to a religious country. I wouldn't say a theocracy, anyway.

But "religious" can be just one step before "theocracy". This goes with the idea that "religious" is different from "spiritual". The former is largely concerned with rituals and the outward trappings of faith. The latter is more concerned with the mystery of living.

Religiosity can lead to spirituality, under the correct circumstances. More likely I think, religion - the codified beliefs and rituals of belief systems - closes itself to change, and becomes the antithesis of spirituality. Any system that is not open to the dynamics involved in our living each day can be a hindrance to obtaining useful knowledge about what it takes to be successful in this world.
----------------------------

In this morning's Jakarta Post, the deputy secretary to Vice President Jusuf Kalla stated that the Indonesian Ulemas Council (MUI) cannot dictate government religious policy. The MUI is that rabid Muslim policy group that issued fatwas last year stating that Indonesia should not be a pluralistic society.

The latest MUI flap concerns the government having given Jemaah Ahmadiyah, a wayward Islamic sect, three months to prove it is not contradictory to Islamic values. MUI already has issued a fatwa that Ahmadiyah must be disbanded.

VP Kalla's secretary told The Jakarta Post that "Islamic organizations [i..e., MUI] should respect the 12 Ahmadiyah statements and stop the attacks on the group".

Meanwhile, MUI's deputy chairman said the council respected freedom of religion [i.e., Pancasila], but could not tolerate deviation from Islamic principles. How's that for doublespeak?

"Some rules applied will guarantee that freedom of religion does not violate the law; does not stain religion values; does not bother public order and peaceful life; and does not bother people's harmony," said Ma'aruf, the MUI's head of edicts.

He said that, in a departure from usual MUI procedure, the council did NOT conduct an investigation into Ahmadiyah before declaring it heretical.

"The Ahmadiyah group is an exception. We didn't have to do any investigating since the group has long been internationally known as a heretical Islamic sect," he told a discussion.
------------------------------

If powerful groups, like MUI, have their way, this country will become an Islamic theocracy. In other words, Indonesia will become a religious nazi nation, instead of developing the pluralistic, more tolerant values upon which it was founded.

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#68637 - 23 Jan 08 10:14 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: flingwing]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Quoting: flingwing
Meanwhile, MUI's deputy chairman said the council respected freedom of religion [i.e., Pancasila], but could not tolerate deviation from Islamic principles. How's that for doublespeak?



Exactly, I read that yesterday and thought ,"What an idiot," but logic is not a strong point throughout this country's political machinations. Indonesia is becoming more religiously INTOLERANT. Secularism is all about tolerance and not burning churches, persecuting Christians OR Muslims for that matter. It's about protecting minorities and human rights. Muslims believe their warped value system is special? Fine, just leave me the hell alone. Leave me to think and use my brain in peace and I'll meet you at the evolutionary bell curve.
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#68639 - 23 Jan 08 10:19 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Roy's Hair]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
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Meeting at the "evolutionary bell curve" is a lot better than the "evolutionary bell end"
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#68642 - 23 Jan 08 10:24 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Dilli]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
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Oh dear . It's going to be non stop Ledger on Jak Chat today. I can see that now.
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#68654 - 23 Jan 08 11:22 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Roy's Hair]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
I doubt there was an actual suicide note what with the writers' strike and all that.

PS, I am selling his leftover pills if anyone wants some!
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#68656 - 23 Jan 08 11:29 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Dilli]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
"Ah wish ah could quit you pills"
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#68657 - 23 Jan 08 11:36 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Roy's Hair]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
What really pisses me off about the Heath Ledger thing is that he was in the middle of filming a new Terry Gilliam movie.

Gilliam is one of my favourite directors and a bona fide genius, but he has absolutely zero luck getting his movies completed
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#68658 - 23 Jan 08 11:39 Re: Pak Harto Dead! [Re: Dilli]
Roy's Hair Offline
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Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Yeahy, Brazil is a classic satire on the UK.
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