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#47003 - 08 Mar 07 08:54 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: riccardo]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Some great photos (albeit very large, and may take some time to load) from indflyer.net, first one shows the guy taking away the blackbox and the other shows where the tire of the nose wheel obviously shredded off the rim skidded and dug into the tarmac, surely throwing up a lightshow of sparks:




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1177-blackbox.jpg

1178-nosewheel.jpg


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#47014 - 08 Mar 07 12:43 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: riccardo]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
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Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
"shows where the tire of the nose wheel obviously shredded off the rim skidded and dug into the tarmac"

I wonder what happened to the other nose wheel tyre ? surprising lack of rubber - could have been the tail skid plate
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I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
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#47015 - 08 Mar 07 13:00 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: riccardo]
Queenie Offline
Member++

Registered: 06 Feb 07
Posts: 200
Loc: Earth
Seems God forgot about Indonesia, each day i turn the tv on i see another disaster, its unbeliveble...
God dont hear Indonesian prayers anymore.
I wish you guys very good luck and be strong...
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#47020 - 08 Mar 07 15:49 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: Queenie]
Orang Kanada Offline
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Registered: 30 Sep 06
Posts: 621
Loc: Jakarta
Queenie, I don't think God have something to do with human stupidity here...

And natural disasters, it's not because insurance companies call it "act of God" that it's necessaraly the case...
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#47021 - 08 Mar 07 16:53 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: Orang Kanada]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
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Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
A bit quick to jump on "human stupidity" just yet - though it may be high on the cards -
We could however look at Australian Fuckwits with a camera filming the performance for posterity instead of either fucking off out of the way , or trying to help .
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I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#47032 - 08 Mar 07 22:51 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: Capt. Mainwaring
A bit quick to jump on "human stupidity" just yet - though it may be high on the cards -
We could however look at Australian Fuckwits with a camera filming the performance for posterity instead of either fucking off out of the way , or trying to help .


I've read that the cameraman was a local guy; a freelancer hired by the Aussie TV station for a one-off gig.
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#47054 - 09 Mar 07 00:36 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: riccardo]
naga Offline
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Registered: 18 Jan 07
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Loc: undisclosed location
"We could however look at Australian Fuckwits with a camera filming the performance for posterity instead of either fucking off out of the way , or trying to help . "

he was an Indonesian fuckwit...
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#47067 - 09 Mar 07 01:49 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: Dilli]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
In a slight attempt to bring it back on topic I wouldn't mind getting a few votes on this poll.
Given the number of Plane, Ship and Train deaths who do you think is to blame
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 09 Mar 07 01:48
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.
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Edited by Piss Salon
Edit Reason: taste

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#47068 - 09 Mar 07 01:55 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: chewwyUK]
doremi Offline
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Registered: 17 Jan 07
Posts: 488
Loc: slouch couch
Mr. C, I think the accidents can be blamed on both the company and the government.



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#47070 - 09 Mar 07 02:20 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: doremi]
chewwyUK Offline
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Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
IMHO it has to be the government who has to take charge. It is their responsibility to protect the people of Indonesia and if they really cracked down on companies running unsafe transport then things would improve.

I would be interested to know how Indonesia ranks in terms of transportation disasters ... it has to be high up in the world list. Ricc any stats to hand on that??
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Edit Reason: taste

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#47089 - 09 Mar 07 05:01 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: chewwyUK]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe

Quoting: Jakarta Post
University of Indonesia criminologist Adrianus Meliala also shared his story. He expressed disappointment in Garuda's crew members, who he said ran away without helping the passengers.

"They should have given information on the process of evacuation ... not run away leaving the passengers who were still in panic," he said.



Standard Operating Procedure for indonesian flight crew.
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#47097 - 09 Mar 07 06:34 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Holy Bejeezus, I go to a meeting today and a fairly sober thread on the accident turns into a moose-counting affair.

Chewwy, I agree with NW, my guess is it's a combination of shoddy companies and corrupt govt people, particularly govt regulators.

There are lots of stats, but for air travel alone, it stands out as the probably the only country in the world, which can't claim air travel is the safest mode of transportation.

In 2006 alone, (not counting the 3 MAJOR accidents this year) there was an aircraft "incident" recorded in the country every nine to 10 days. Apart from crashes and "near" crashes, this includes whether a plane had missed the runway or was forced into a landing because of a technical fault.

More worryingly, the statistics only account for the incidents which have been logged.

Major aircraft accidents have cost the lives of almost 280 people in Indonesia in the past three years.

Overall, Indonesia’s aviation safety record is only slightly better than the average African country, according to figures from a London-based aircraft insurance adjuster, Airclaims Ltd.

On average, Indonesian airline companies damage one plane hull beyond repair for every 200,000 flights. Only slightly better than the poorest of African countries with one loss for every 150,000 flights. In the USA, for example, it is one for every 4.5 million.

Garuda alone has killed over 620 passengers over the past 50 years -- meaning nearly 13 Garuda passengers will die each year on average.

sources: Telegraph, NYTimes, AirClaims
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#47098 - 09 Mar 07 06:54 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: KuKuKaChu]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: KuKuKaChu

Quoting: Jakarta Post
University of Indonesia criminologist Adrianus Meliala also shared his story. He expressed disappointment in Garuda's crew members, who he said ran away without helping the passengers.

"They should have given information on the process of evacuation ... not run away leaving the passengers who were still in panic," he said.


Standard Operating Procedure for indonesian flight crew.


My ex was ground crew mgr. and stewardess for an airline in CA and I know for a fact that they are required by ICAO to go through strenuous training on everything from first-aid to crawling through smoke filled planes to rescue people.

According to Int'l regulations from ICAO, EVERY crew member on every plane in the world must be trained in, and able to, follow emergency procedures, which first and foremost means: Assisting the passengers to get out first in a situation such as this!!

One eyewitness said he saw the crew jumping out before anyone else. That, right there, is a major int'l violation, which Garuda should very rightly be sanctioned for.

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#47101 - 09 Mar 07 07:19 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: riccardo]
Queenie Offline
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Registered: 06 Feb 07
Posts: 200
Loc: Earth
nothing is safe...
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#47102 - 09 Mar 07 07:22 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: KuKuKaChu]
riccardo Offline
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Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Flight attendants are not just there to be pretty face.

Some excerpts from FAA cabin crew regulations:

--Generally they must pass a thorough training course of up to 8 weeks to earn special certification, which must renewed every 2 years.

--Major airlines are required by international law to provide flight attendants for the safety of the traveling public.

--At least 1 hour before each flight, attendants are briefed by the captain—the pilot in command—on such things as emergency evacuation procedures, coordination of the crew, the length of the flight, expected weather conditions, and special issues.

--flight attendants instruct all passengers in the use of emergency equipment.

--Helping passengers in the event of an emergency is the most important responsibility of a flight attendant.
_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#47104 - 09 Mar 07 07:26 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: riccardo]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
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Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
What people do and what they are supposed to do are two completely different things .
I recently had the pleasure of an easyjet flight to switzerland , and the fucking thing took off with one of the cabin crew poncing around with coffee and hardbakes in the rear galley -
An incident such as this only shows peoples true nature and character - I wonder what would happen in such a situation in the UK ? the bastards can't wait to get on an off the thing at the best of times , in an emergency situation you would probably get torn to bits . Can you imagine the average Indo trying to open the emergency hatches on a 737 ? no , nor can I , it was probable crew who had to do it , and I what is the betting that standing with the wind in their face , they chose not to go back and get BBQ'ed ? I know which direction I would be heading in too - like the safety demo , if you need to be shown how to put a seat belt on , your are too dense to fly - same for heading for 6 large holes leading to safety from a flame saturated cabin - do you think they should have stayed back an offered items from the Garuda inflight magazine ?

Any further info on what caused it then Riccardo ? - the others may not take this seriously and have the audacity to count mooses etc , but I certainly do .
Just looking at your first photo suggests happenings not in accordance with reports -
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#47105 - 09 Mar 07 07:29 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: riccardo]
Dilli Offline
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Registered: 26 Feb 06
Posts: 8044
Loc: Nearest Bar
I remember the Emirates Airline Cabin Crew helped passengers in many ways!

But on a serious note, they are in fact by airline rules and regulations required to control the aircraft passenger evacuation prior to their own disembarking!

Having said that, in a panic environment you cannot control how individuals will react! Some people can keep their head while others will lose the plot, even though they have more training and are theoretically able to perform these tasks automatically!

If there is a fireball ripping through the fuselage, it could be considered a good time to exit and try to do what you can for those outside.

Difficult call on that one, I do not think anyone in that situation can be criticised.

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#47106 - 09 Mar 07 07:30 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: riccardo]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: riccardo
Flight attendants are not just there to be pretty face.

Some excerpts from FAA cabin crew regulations:

--Generally they must pass a thorough training course of up to 8 weeks to earn special certification, which must renewed every 2 years.

--Major airlines are required by international law to provide flight attendants for the safety of the traveling public.

--At least 1 hour before each flight, attendants are briefed by the captain—the pilot in command—on such things as emergency evacuation procedures, coordination of the crew, the length of the flight, expected weather conditions, and special issues.

--flight attendants instruct all passengers in the use of emergency equipment.

--Helping passengers in the event of an emergency is the most important responsibility of a flight attendant.


You haven't travelled on any of the european budget airlines then - half the fuckers live in the ground .

_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#47111 - 09 Mar 07 08:19 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: Dilli]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: Dilli


But on a serious note, they are in fact by airline rules and regulations required to control the aircraft passenger evacuation prior to their own disembarking!

Difficult call on that one, I do not think anyone in that situation can be criticised.


To be fair one of the cabin crew did die. Perhaps it was the purser (cabin supv) and he/she ordered his mates off and did what he could before dying himself.
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#47117 - 09 Mar 07 08:51 Hot & Hard in Jogja [Re: riccardo]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
I've never understood why people always talk about Garuda being safe... Here's just a sampling of accidents that we know about; the ones they weren't able to cover up.


--March 7, 2007 Garuda Boeing 737-400 crash lands in Jogja, pilot comes in "HOT AND HARD", misses run way, plane explodes. At least 23 dead, including 4 Australian govt officials and a journalist.

--Feb 21, 2007 Adam Air Boeing 737-300 plane crash lands at Juanda International Airport, Surabaya. No reported casualties.

--Feb 1, 2007 Saudi Airlines 747-300 collides with Garuda Boeing 737-500 at Soekarno-Hatta International Airport in Jakarta. No injuries.

--January 13, 2007 Gading Sari 737-200 crash lands at Kuching Airport, Malaysia.

--Jan 1, 2007 Adam Air Boeing 737-400 with 102 people on board disappears off Sulawesi.

--September 5, 2005 Mandala Airlines B737-200 crashes after take-off from Medan Sumatra into residential area, killing 145.

--November 30, 2004 Lion Air McDonnell-Douglas MD-82 overruns runway at Solo City, Central Java, killing 25, injuring 59.

--January 16, 2002 Garuda Boeing 737-300 on approach to Yogyakarta makes emergency landing, killing one.

--September 26, 1997 Garuda A300 crashed on approach to Medan airport. All 222 passengers and 12 crew killed.

--July 17, 1997 Sempati Air Fokker F-27 crashes near Bandung killing 26.

--June 13, 1996 GarudaDC-10 overruns runway after aborting takeoff from Fukuoka, Japan. Fire destroys aircraft. Three killed.

--April 4, 1987 Garuda DC9 crashes on approach to Medan, 27 killed.

--June 2, 1983 GarudaFokker F28 overruns runway at Tanjungkarang, three killed.

--March 20, 1982 Garuda F28 overruns runways at Brantl Airport, 26 killed.

--July 11 1979 Garuda] F28 crashes near Medan, 61 killed.

--September 24, 1975 Garuda F28 crashes near Palembang, 25 killed.

--September 7, 1974 Garuda F27 crash lands at Telukbetung, 31 killed.
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#47118 - 09 Mar 07 09:00 Re: Hot & Hard in Jogja [Re: riccardo]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Over the last 3 decades, Garuda averages over 14 kills per year. And that doesn't even include their complicity in the murder of Munir.
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#47119 - 09 Mar 07 09:03 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: riccardo]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
How very accomodating of them - one supposes that he/she can't be accused of leaving their post .

I like this bit "--Generally they must pass a thorough training course of up to 8 weeks to earn special certification, which must renewed every 2 years."

lots of "generally" and "up to" in that - I bet you most pilots don't have that amount of time training . " there is the pointy end that should always go first , those long flappy things stop you dropping out the sky , the big hairdryers make you go faster , and those wheels are so you can move it on the ground - push this button , pull the string and point it "





_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#47121 - 09 Mar 07 09:34 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
This website has some interesting info :-

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/rates.htm

And take a look at this ! Aeroflot can't keep them in the air at all , they drop like flies:-
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/Airline/AL%20Aeroflot.htm



Edited by Capt. Mainwaring (09 Mar 07 09:58)
_________________________
I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
Kosong.Wolo.Setunggal.Setunggal.Setunggal.Kosong.Pitu.Setunggal.Kosong.Wolo=Tempik

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#47123 - 09 Mar 07 10:46 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: Capt. Mainwaring]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
The first hint that it may have been sabotage:
-----------------------
A top investigator said that the plane's front wheels snapped off as it landed, and that the fire spread from punctured fuel tanks in the right wing.

"We are trying to find out why the wheel broke," Marjdono Siswo Suwarno said.
-----------------------------

This would explain the massive gash in the tarmac. No tires, no rims, just the rod or the wheel-well doors smashing into the asphalt, sending up a shower of gravel and sparks.

Also... an aviation expert said after viewing the photos, that the wing flaps were not in "landing mode", which could explain why they were not slowing down enough for the landing. Both pilots are alive and well and they have black boxes, but nobody is talking.

Garuda painted over their logo on the tail, then cut it off with a blowtorch this morning.
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#47124 - 09 Mar 07 11:00 Re: Garuda Crash in Jogja [Re: riccardo]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
there seems to be an awful lot of revisionism going on with this story. persons unknown seem to want to blame the pilots for a "hard" landing, whereas in fact the incident started in the air, before passengers had even strapped themselves in ready for landing!!

according to one of the earlist reports from detik, an engine exploded just as the plane was making it's descent for landing. the plane landed very hard on the runway because it had probably lost power. persons unknown are trying to make out that this represented the beginning of the incident. it was not!

the plane hit the runway so hard that it literally bounced. that didn't happen because of a "hard landing" due to pilot miscalulation; that's a crash landing caused by engine failure!
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