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#37961 - 07 Dec 06 05:02 ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy

Jakarta (Antara News) - Indonesia is considering extending a ban on civil servants practising polygamy to cover all officials working for the state, including legislators and soldiers, a minister said Tuesday.

"The president has great concern for women and he wants tranquility in society," Minister for Women's Empowerment Mutia Hatta told journalists at the presidential palace after meeting with President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.

Hatta said Yudhoyono had issued instructions to study extending the law to cover all those working for the state.

Current government regulations ban polygamy among civil servants but do not cover lawmakers, political appointees such as cabinet ministers, governors and heads of districts or soldiers and police, she was quoted by AFP as saying.

Cabinet secretary Sudi Silalahi said polygamy was only allowed among the general public if the wife could no longer perform her duties, was an invalid, suffered from an incurable disease or was infertile.

Approval to take another wife also had to be obtained from a religious court and from the first wife.

The move to amend the law was prompted by a controversy over polygamy after a popular Muslim preacher was recently found to have taken a second wife in secret.

Hatta said revision of the law would be started as soon as possible but gave no timeframe.

The director general for Islamic guidance at the ministry for religious affairs, Nazzarudin Umar, said Islam allowed polygamy but only if the man could be "just and fair" towards all his wives.

"Can one be really just? Men would say yes, but God in the holy Koran says it is impossible for men to be just," Umar said, calling on Muslims not to use religion as a means to legitimise their wishes to have more than one spouse.

Islam permits up to four wives but some mostly Muslim nations such as Tunisia have banned polygamy.

More than 90 percent of Indonesia's population is Muslim but most follow a moderate version of the faith. (*)
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#37962 - 07 Dec 06 05:06 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
this could very well blow up in SBY's face. messing with the marriage law No. 1/1974 is a dangerous act, no matter what the justification. it's the sort of thing that president's get assassinated for ... but i guess SBY's made his calculation, and figures the islamists are now diminished as a political force. that is in fact the case, however, the fanatics remain, and they won't take kindly to any messing with Law No. 1/1974.
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#38110 - 08 Dec 06 22:49 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
What I don't understand is why any man in his right mind would want more than one wife. It seems like life would be a bit too complicated for my liking.

Or could it be something like having more than one child? Do they kind of look after each other?

Just curious.
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#38116 - 09 Dec 06 00:03 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
Orang Kanada Offline
Member*

Registered: 30 Sep 06
Posts: 621
Loc: Jakarta
Divorces are too expensive, better keep it and marry another one, it's cheaper! That's the only explanation to me!!!
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Spiderpig, spiderpig...

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#38118 - 09 Dec 06 00:26 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Orang Kanada]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
even better:

strangle the old one. Have some fun!!

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#38133 - 09 Dec 06 06:05 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Quoting: xsbir
What I don't understand is why any man in his right mind would want more than one wife. It seems like life would be a bit too complicated for my liking.

Or could it be something like having more than one child? Do they kind of look after each other?

Just curious.


I agree
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#38134 - 09 Dec 06 06:09 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Macan Tutul]
Macan Tutul Offline
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Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
And if I can add a little bit :

Why women can't do the same? Polyandry??? If we woman do that, it looks like a sinner.... why we don't have same right????
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(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#38164 - 09 Dec 06 23:24 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Macan Tutul]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: Macan Tutul
And if I can add a little bit :

Why women can't do the same? Polyandry??? If we woman do that, it looks like a sinner.... why we don't have same right????

you as a woman do not have this "right" because Al-Quran did not give it to you. as i know you are a good muslim, you will understand this.

Al-Quran on polygamy:
Marry women who seem good to you,
two, three, or four in number;
However, if you fear
That you may not be able to act
equitably towards all,
Then marry only one.

as a good muslim, i know you will also recall that Allah has determined that "one male is the equivalent of two females". this is the natural order. this is the way Allah meant life to be. this is fundamental to the islamic worldview, and if you don't agree, then maybe you should consider cancelling your membership.

interestingly, Al-Quran reccomends that second and subsequent marriages be with "widows" (janda), by which is meant divorcees as well. AA Gym took as his second wife a janda with three children.


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#38166 - 09 Dec 06 23:59 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
PB on shagging:

Shag women who seem sexy to you,
two, three, or four in number;
However, if you fear
That you may not be able to shag
equitably towards all,
Then shag only one.

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#38168 - 10 Dec 06 00:06 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Quoting: KuKuKaChu



as a good muslim, i know you will also recall that Allah has determined that "one male is the equivalent of two females". this is the natural order. this is the way Allah meant life to be. this is fundamental to the islamic worldview, and if you don't agree, then maybe you should consider cancelling your membership.

interestingly, Al-Quran reccomends that second and subsequent marriages be with "widows" (janda), by which is meant divorcees as well. AA Gym took as his second wife a janda with three children.




I'm not Muslim, and I'm not here to judge or condemn, but rather to learn. Does the above mean that marrying second, third and fourth wives are essentially acts of benevolence?

Why is this now such a controversy in Indonesia? Aside from the Gym case, are people here finally waking up to the fact that polygamy is inequitable to women?
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#38236 - 12 Dec 06 00:18 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: KuKuKaChu

as a good muslim, i know you will also recall that Allah has determined that "one male is the equivalent of two females". this is the natural order. this is the way Allah meant life to be. this is fundamental to the islamic worldview, and if you don't agree, then maybe you should consider cancelling your membership.


AND according to Borat, the hierarchy is:
God,
man,
horse,
dog,
rat,
woman
and then a little "krutzouli" (cockroach)
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#38245 - 12 Dec 06 01:19 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Quoting: KuKuKaChu


as a good muslim, i know you will also recall that Allah has determined that "one male is the equivalent of two females". this is the natural order. this is the way Allah meant life to be. this is fundamental to the islamic worldview,



I do hope you are joking. This sounds like something out of the 19th century.

If this is really the Islamic worldview today in the 21st century, is it not diametrically opposed to Western notions of equality between the sexes? All religions are probably to some extent sexist, but I didn't really think Islam was that backwards.

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#38246 - 12 Dec 06 01:28 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
xsbir, you have a LOT to learn if you "didn't really think Islam was that backward."

Goodness gracious sakes!
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#38247 - 12 Dec 06 01:36 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: riccardo]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Okay, maybe I can understand that Islam contains antiquated teachings, but I didn't really think that otherwise modern people, like Kuku, seem to subscribe to them, like this notion that "one male is the equivalent of two females" and argue for polygamy!
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#38248 - 12 Dec 06 01:47 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: xsbir
Quoting: KuKuKaChu


as a good muslim, i know you will also recall that Allah has determined that "one male is the equivalent of two females". this is the natural order. this is the way Allah meant life to be. this is fundamental to the islamic worldview,



I do hope you are joking. This sounds like something out of the 19th century.

If this is really the Islamic worldview today in the 21st century, is it not diametrically opposed to Western notions of equality between the sexes? All religions are probably to some extent sexist, but I didn't really think Islam was that backwards.


no, i'm not joking. what i describe is islam as it is. nothing more, nothing less. religions like islam do not "progress"; they are fixed in time, with their texts being the final and indisputable word of god. thus, to the modern liberal westerner, islam is most certainly "backward".

as for polygamy, i don't really see this as a wholly religious issue, but more of a private lifestyle matter.
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#38249 - 12 Dec 06 01:49 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Metro Mad next Sunday chaps. I'll be nipping all this medieval polygamy nonsense in the bud.
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#38250 - 12 Dec 06 01:56 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: xsbir
Quoting: KuKuKaChu


as a good muslim, i know you will also recall that Allah has determined that "one male is the equivalent of two females". this is the natural order. this is the way Allah meant life to be. this is fundamental to the islamic worldview,



I do hope you are joking. This sounds like something out of the 19th century.

If this is really the Islamic worldview today in the 21st century, is it not diametrically opposed to Western notions of equality between the sexes? All religions are probably to some extent sexist, but I didn't really think Islam was that backwards.


no, i'm not joking. what i describe is islam as it is. nothing more, nothing less. religions like islam do not "progress"; they are fixed in time, with their texts being the final and indisputable word of god. thus, to the modern liberal westerner, islam is most certainly "backward".

as for polygamy, i don't really see this as a wholly religious issue, but more of a private lifestyle matter.
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Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#38251 - 12 Dec 06 02:03 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Roy's Hair]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Not a private matter me thinks but deeply political. You think Osama's wives or numerous Saudi women are exercising free choice in this matter? Luckily most Indo chicks are sassy enough not to stand for this guff.I bet AA Gym has sex with his girly turban on too. Twat.
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Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#38282 - 12 Dec 06 05:50 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Roy's Hair]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
We can only cure this with education.

we should all take it upon ourselves to shag one Mulsim girl each week, to free her from the religious bonds that tie her.

Come on guys, I cant do this all on my own. I need some help!!!

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#38335 - 12 Dec 06 13:57 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
Feel the chains of male opression lift from you my dear. Now get your knickers off
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#38350 - 12 Dec 06 21:33 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Roy's Hair]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quoting: Roy's hair
Feel the chains of male opression lift from you my dear. Now get your knickers off


you mean Muslim girls wear knickers?

shit - i hoped otherwise....

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#38352 - 12 Dec 06 23:00 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: xsbir
Quoting: KuKuKaChu


as a good muslim, i know you will also recall that Allah has determined that "one male is the equivalent of two females". this is the natural order. this is the way Allah meant life to be. this is fundamental to the islamic worldview,



I do hope you are joking. This sounds like something out of the 19th century.

If this is really the Islamic worldview today in the 21st century, is it not diametrically opposed to Western notions of equality between the sexes? All religions are probably to some extent sexist, but I didn't really think Islam was that backwards.


no, i'm not joking. what i describe is islam as it is. nothing more, nothing less. religions like islam do not "progress"; they are fixed in time, with their texts being the final and indisputable word of god. thus, to the modern liberal westerner, islam is most certainly "backward".

as for polygamy, i don't really see this as a wholly religious issue, but more of a private lifestyle matter.


Obviously there are liberal Muslims, who have progressed beyond what was transcribed as the word of Allah by nomads in a desert 1400 years ago, otherwise this polygamy issue would not be the controversy it is in Indonesia today. The practice is also banned in a number of Muslim countries. Why is this, if not for liberal Muslims who do not subscribe to the 2=1 nonsense you quote?
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#38353 - 12 Dec 06 23:19 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: xsbir
Obviously there are liberal Muslims, who have progressed beyond what was transcribed as the word of Allah by nomads in a desert 1400 years ago, otherwise this polygamy issue would not be the controversy it is in Indonesia today. The practice is also banned in a number of Muslim countries. Why is this, if not for liberal Muslims who do not subscribe to the 2=1 nonsense you quote?

Probably because they are not "good" muslims ...

Al-Quran is explicit about woman's position and status. no ambiguity whatsoever. the 2 woman == 1 man reference is not Hadith (islamic law/tradition), but actually part of Al-Quran.

islam is what it is. there is, as far as i know, no "revised" modern version of islam's holiest texts, as much as many westerners would like to imagine.

appending the tag "moderate" to a muslim does not in any way change the fundamentals of the religion.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#38356 - 12 Dec 06 23:47 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
So are you a “good Muslim” if your interpretation of a book coincides with that of someone else?


Life is about interpretation and understanding:

If I masturbate, am I killing the pups that MT and I would have if we made love?

If I turn off a life support system 15 minutes before someone dies of natural causes, is that murder? If by not switching it off and freeing up a hospital bed, someone else who needs that bed dies – is that murder?

If I look at a photograph of my neighbours wife – am I “coverting her”? What if she is a nude model and she is in Penthouse? (What if she is my sister or mother???)


Religion includes a set of social rules to ensure harmony within a society. Don’t steal, don’t murder, don’t do this, always do that….. The rules in the Koran were set don’t for tribal Arabs, and have no place in modern society.

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#38357 - 12 Dec 06 23:47 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
So are you a “good Muslim” if your interpretation of a book coincides with that of someone else?


Life is about interpretation and understanding:

If I masturbate, am I killing the pups that MT and I would have if we made love?

If I turn off a life support system 15 minutes before someone dies of natural causes, is that murder? If by not switching it off and freeing up a hospital bed, someone else who needs that bed dies – is that murder?

If I look at a photograph of my neighbours wife – am I “coverting her”? What if she is a nude model and she is in Penthouse? (What if she is my sister or mother???)


Religion includes a set of social rules to ensure harmony within a society. Don’t steal, don’t murder, don’t do this, always do that….. The rules in the Koran were set don’t for tribal Arabs, and have no place in modern society.

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#38436 - 13 Dec 06 12:04 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
it's all in the Exegesis (interpretation of religious texts). They banged that guy up in East Java for daring to translate the Koran into Indonesian. The argument being that translation can lead to deviation of meaning. But all language (foreign or not) is bound by subjective interpretation and subject to the endless cahin of signification (as Post Structuralists say). If I look up a word in the dictionary what do I get? - More words. Look each of those words up - more words again. Language is slippery and it's meaning can never be restricted to THE word (of God).

Put this in contxt and we see that how the meaning of religious quotations are manipulated by those with their own more earthly interests in mind.

I found out today that the prophet (Peas be upon him)actually prevented his sister in law from becoming a second wife. "I'm not having this" he thought "This second wife thing is for a time of war to save widows from oblivion - not so that a married bloke can get a sexier piece of ass" - It's in the Koran, but we don't hear it do we? Selective quotations taken out of context can be taken to mean anything despite protestations that they are "The word of God" - This is (only one) of the great dangers of monotheistic religions
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#38438 - 13 Dec 06 12:21 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Roy's Hair]
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
According to somebody who comments on my site the Quran says:

marry more than one if there are widows (during wartime, not divorcees) and your'e worried about what will become of their children, but only do it if you can be fair to them,....... but you can't be fair to them, it's impossible.

Which would seem to mean just don't do it, except perhaps in extreme circumstances. The hadith though differ from this.
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#38441 - 13 Dec 06 13:40 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Patung]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
and loe God spake unto the people and sayeth, "Get thy knickers off".
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Chinese like more traditional patterns on their ring.

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#38446 - 13 Dec 06 14:18 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Patung]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Quoting: patung
According to somebody who comments on my site the Quran says:

marry more than one if there are widows (during wartime, not divorcees) and your'e worried about what will become of their children, but only do it if you can be fair to them,....... but you can't be fair to them, it's impossible.

Which would seem to mean just don't do it, except perhaps in extreme circumstances. The hadith though differ from this.


So what is it: selfishness or benevolence that drives men to marry more than one woman where it is permitted, like in Indonesia? If a foreign man comes to Indonesia and takes advantage of this possibility, what is he doing?

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#38475 - 14 Dec 06 01:42 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: xsbir
So what is it: selfishness or benevolence that drives men to marry more than one woman where it is permitted, like in Indonesia? If a foreign man comes to Indonesia and takes advantage of this possibility, what is he doing?


so, how many foreign men do you know who "take advantage of this possibility"?
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#38477 - 14 Dec 06 02:10 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
rainman Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 19
Loc: Indonesia


It's never wise to discuss and debate on Religious Issue, especially on the net for all to see and in the largest Muslim country in the world.

Cheers

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#38478 - 14 Dec 06 02:17 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: rainman]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quoting: rainman


It's never wise to discuss and debate on Religious Issue, especially on the net for all to see and in the largest Muslim country in the world.

Cheers


I agree rainman. But we have to do many things that are unwise in life. Developing an atomic bomb was unwise.

I would rather re-educate Muslims via discussion and debate than flatten them with bombs....


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#38479 - 14 Dec 06 02:22 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
Gren Offline
Member

Registered: 24 Oct 06
Posts: 21
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: rainman
It's never wise to discuss and debate on Religious Issue, especially on the net for all to see and in the largest Muslim country in the world.Cheers

Luckily for us, JakChat.com is physically located outside of Indonesia, so we are free to discuss important matters free from intimidation from terrorists.

Wise muslims are of course always welcome on JakChat and can say whatever they like without being persecuted. In fact, most of JakChat.com members are Muslim.

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#38482 - 14 Dec 06 02:28 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: rainman]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: rainman


It's never wise to discuss and debate on Religious Issue, especially on the net for all to see and in the largest Muslim country in the world.

Cheers


I appreciate your concern for us to be "wise", but I strongly disagree with your suggestion to quit discussing religious issues. Welcome to the REAL World, the modern world. We don't subscribe to all that Pancasila, New Order, Bhinnekka Ika Tunggal b.s., nor will we be intimidated by it.

Religion, specifically iSlam, is part of the real world and is causing a lot of problems in the world today. If we sweep it under the carpet and everyone remains blissfully ignorant, we'd achieve nothing.

Discussing and debating provokes thought. Thought provokes new, creative ideas. New, creative ideas help people and societies make progress.

_________________________
Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#38483 - 14 Dec 06 02:31 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: xsbir
So what is it: selfishness or benevolence that drives men to marry more than one woman where it is permitted, like in Indonesia? If a foreign man comes to Indonesia and takes advantage of this possibility, what is he doing?


so, how many foreign men do you know who "take advantage of this possibility"?


I don't know any, so that's why i pose my questions here.
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#38487 - 14 Dec 06 02:57 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
"But we have to do many things that are unwise in life. Developing an atomic bomb was unwise.

I would rather re-educate Muslims via discussion and debate than flatten them with bombs...."

"Discussing and debating provokes thought. Thought provokes new, creative ideas. New, creative ideas help people and societies make progress."

Yup.....

_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#38489 - 14 Dec 06 03:05 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: xsbir
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: xsbir
So what is it: selfishness or benevolence that drives men to marry more than one woman where it is permitted, like in Indonesia? If a foreign man comes to Indonesia and takes advantage of this possibility, what is he doing?

so, how many foreign men do you know who "take advantage of this possibility"?

I don't know any, so that's why i pose my questions here.

well, i know of only one foreigner who has more than one wife. and he seems to be a normal, happy chap. wives/children seem happy enough, too. is that a problem??
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#38491 - 14 Dec 06 03:16 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
"But we have to do many things that are unwise in life. Developing an atomic bomb was unwise.

I would rather re-educate Muslims via discussion and debate than flatten them with bombs...."

"Discussing and debating provokes thought. Thought provokes new, creative ideas. New, creative ideas help people and societies make progress."

Yup.....

And Mr.Rainman....of course you know that always be two sides of thing or whatever it is and yes Islam had two face worst and better and me as a Moslem talking here and I don't mean to be the good one.... All people, as a group or as individuals, are unique and I said here that I am tired with the extrimist, the orthodox and hypocritical one.....and some of moderates Moslem have done to abandon rigid, oppressive, and exploitative dogma for the nurturing expanse of liberty.It's slavery of the mind. So I think thanks to Kuku that open for some kind of discussion like important issues whether talk about SEX video of Dangdut singer and the member House of Representative.



_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#38509 - 14 Dec 06 04:17 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Macan Tutul]
rainman Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 19
Loc: Indonesia

OK Guys, I rest my case..... It's not legal to discuss this subject in my country.


U should know where that is.. lolz


Edited by rainman (14 Dec 06 04:19)

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#38510 - 14 Dec 06 04:20 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: rainman]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
well, it's just as well then that JakChat.com lives in vancouver ...
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#38511 - 14 Dec 06 04:22 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Jazz Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 9
Loc: Earth
I am wondering the "happy enough" wives' education & social background.
Don't think any wife in world would really sincerely share her husband to another man, not in indo, not in arab, not in china, nowhere! and..... vice verca!

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#38513 - 14 Dec 06 04:25 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Jazz]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: Jazz
I am wondering the "happy enough" wives' education & social background.

three are uni grads (2 UGM, 1 purwokerto), and 1 is SMP.

is that good enough?
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#38518 - 14 Dec 06 05:05 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Kuku the one and only who had more than 1 wife in this earth who become my hero wink
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#38556 - 14 Dec 06 13:42 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Macan Tutul]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Quoting: Macan Tutul
Kuku the one and only who had more than 1 wife in this earth who become my hero wink


Well, if it's Kuku the one foreigner who has more than one wife in this country, then I have just have one sincere question for him: why? Divide the question into two parts: what's the motive for the man; what's the motive for the women? I'd really like to know.
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Don't even try!

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#38568 - 14 Dec 06 23:34 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
The "motives" are exactly the same as for (apparently) monogamous relationships.

i ask you: what is the movtivation behind male bules going to sleazy pubs and bars every night of the week in search of nubile female flesh? (no, i'm not *just* talking about you, dilli! wink )

and what is the motivation behind all these females offering their flesh to said male? (no, it's not *all* about money! smile many very much like what they do!)

frankly, i'm extremely suspicious of males who claim to be monogamous. it ain't natural.
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#38573 - 15 Dec 06 02:33 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Well, what exactly are those motives? It seems to me that people enter into a monogamous marriage precisely for the exclusivity that the institution provides. This exclusivity and lifelong commitment to one person foster mutual trust and security that don't seem possible in polygamous relationships.

I've never been polygamous, so what do I know? When I was single I had multiple relationships, sometimes at the same time. The complexities and insecurity inherent in multiple relationships led me to want to marry one woman.

Not all male bules are "going to sleazy pubs and bars every night of the week in search of nubile female flesh." Those that are obviously by definition are not in monogamous marriages. Ditto for the females "offering their flesh." I concede that some married men play around, but how many married perek do you know?

Monogamy may not be natural, but we're not living in the jungle anymore. We have all kinds of laws and rules that we follow in order to live in civilization. Those committed to a monogamous marriage follow its rules.

To paraphrase a post above: why would a woman want to share a husband with other women?


Edited by xsbir (15 Dec 06 02:34)
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Don't even try!

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#38577 - 15 Dec 06 03:22 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
You can share my women, but leave my Porsche alone.....

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#38579 - 15 Dec 06 03:36 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
Well I have never been married so I am no expert but it seems to me the main reason people get married is because they dont want to end up old and alone. It is not easy to just be with the one person for the rest of your life ... just take a look at the divorce rates. IMHO the decision should be a personal choice. If the guy and the wives and happy with the situation then why should anybody else care?

_________________________
Edited by Piss Salon
Edit Reason: taste

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#38584 - 15 Dec 06 03:48 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Jazz Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 9
Loc: Earth
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: Jazz
I am wondering the "happy enough" wives' education & social background.

three are uni grads (2 UGM, 1 purwokerto), and 1 is SMP.

is that good enough?


What a great life! 3 admin assistants & 1 housekeeper! Wondering if you can have such "facility" in wherever you are from.

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#38586 - 15 Dec 06 03:58 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: chewwyUK]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quoting: chewwyUK
Well I have never been married so I am no expert but it seems to me the main reason people get married is because they dont want to end up old and alone. It is not easy to just be with the one person for the rest of your life ... just take a look at the divorce rates. IMHO the decision should be a personal choice. If the guy and the wives and happy with the situation then why should anybody else care?



Chewwy, that "Old and Lonely" crap is spread by women.

single guys are a scarce commodity at any age. Stay single, you wont be lonely!!!!!

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#38590 - 15 Dec 06 04:03 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Jazz Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 9
Loc: Earth
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: xsbir
Quoting: KuKuKaChu


as a good muslim, i know you will also recall that Allah has determined that "one male is the equivalent of two females". this is the natural order. this is the way Allah meant life to be. this is fundamental to the islamic worldview,



I do hope you are joking. This sounds like something out of the 19th century.

If this is really the Islamic worldview today in the 21st century, is it not diametrically opposed to Western notions of equality between the sexes? All religions are probably to some extent sexist, but I didn't really think Islam was that backwards.


no, i'm not joking. what i describe is islam as it is. nothing more, nothing less. religions like islam do not "progress"; they are fixed in time, with their texts being the final and indisputable word of god. thus, to the modern liberal westerner, islam is most certainly "backward".

as for polygamy, i don't really see this as a wholly religious issue, but more of a private lifestyle matter.


Since you see polygamy is more of a private lifestyle matter, you do not mind sharing your wife with other men, I guess.

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#38593 - 15 Dec 06 04:11 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Jazz]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
i seriously suggest everyone read this:

http://jakchat.com/public/polygamy/4yearitch.htm

i scanned and OCRed it from an article i picked up from a university library in 1984. at the time, i was actually heavily into animal behaviour adn zoology, and this article crossed that path for some reason that i now forget.
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#38596 - 15 Dec 06 04:16 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
Jazz Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 9
Loc: Earth
Quoting: Polar Bear
Quoting: chewwyUK
Well I have never been married so I am no expert but it seems to me the main reason people get married is because they dont want to end up old and alone. It is not easy to just be with the one person for the rest of your life ... just take a look at the divorce rates. IMHO the decision should be a personal choice. If the guy and the wives and happy with the situation then why should anybody else care?



Chewwy, that "Old and Lonely" crap is spread by women.

single guys are a scarce commodity at any age. Stay single, you wont be lonely!!!!!


Just wait and see!

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#38597 - 15 Dec 06 04:31 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Jazz]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
I quote from Helen E. Fisher:

"Four years may be the length of our ancestral, biological "breeding season." Scientists have observed that among the traditional !Kung Bushmen, women tended to nurse their infants for three or four years. And because !Kung mothers breast-fed regularly throughout the day and night, as well as offered their breasts as pacifiers, ovulation and subsequent pregnancy were postponed; births were about four years apart. Births are spaced about four years apart among groups of Australian aborigines, too. These data have led scientists to suggest that four-year intervals were the natural pattern of birth spacing among our forebears. Human brain physiology for infatuation and attachment also seems to fit this interval. So here is my theory: Perhaps, like serial monogamy in robins, foxes, and other species that mate only for a breeding season, the human pair bond originally evolved to last long enough to raise a single child through infancy. The seven-year itch, recast as a four-year human reproductive cycle, may be a biological phenomenon."
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#38614 - 15 Dec 06 22:51 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
he seven year cycle does exist, and it is to do with human development. We develop in 7 year cycyles.

From birth to 7 we are helpless, without parent assistance we will die. We cannot hunt for food. Our judgement is poor, our bodies cannot stand the pace on tribal living.

From 7- 14 we are capable of self existence, our judgement is rash but we are capable of making decisions. Our bodies firm up, muscles develop, we can keep pace with the tribe. Typically in the Victorian era UK children were sent to boarding school (or even work) at the age of seven. Good pianists etc start playing at 7. Today, marketing campaigns begin target audience at 7. This is the age when children begin to say – “I want that”.

From 14-21 we are productive. Our minds are very receptive, our bodies develop with training and exercise. Swimming and sporting achievements start at this time. Our schooling, up to graduation from university, occurs at this time. Our interest is sex develops at this time. Men are there most sexually interested about mid way in this band. Semen spurts further at this age band than any other.

From 21 – 28 we develop independent lifestyles. We meet partners, acquire possessions, develop friends (the old tribal mentality), and develop a career. We are at our most productive.

And so it goes on, up until 70-77 when we die.

Life is a series of 7 year bands.

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#38615 - 15 Dec 06 22:54 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Jazz]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Jazz,

I BET you are a woman.......

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#38617 - 15 Dec 06 23:25 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: Polar Bear
Jazz,

I BET you are a woman.......

d'oh! smile
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#38620 - 16 Dec 06 00:13 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
i seriously suggest everyone read this:

http://jakchat.com/public/polygamy/4yearitch.htm

i scanned and OCRed it from an article i picked up from a university library in 1984. at the time, i was actually heavily into animal behaviour adn zoology, and this article crossed that path for some reason that i now forget.


Interesting article sir but methinks thou dost digress. From what I understand, it doesn't provide much support for polygamy but rather for your contention that monogamy "ain't natural."

It does state, however, that monogamy is more likely among older people-Human beings are certainly capable of enduring relationships, particularly as they age. There ya go girls, if you want a monogamous mate, best to go for old geezers like PB grin.
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Don't even try!

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#38622 - 16 Dec 06 00:18 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Excess, I am proof that the rgumet is bullshit. I shagged 134 girls in 5 years after my divorce. I have photos, emails, SMS, and my pubic hair colelction to prove it. smile smile smile

and I am 34.

Average age on this site is about 60.

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#38623 - 16 Dec 06 00:25 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: Polar Bear
and I am 34.

you really need to work on your English tenses. you "were" 34. once. 21 years ago ...
_________________________
KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#38633 - 16 Dec 06 03:17 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: Polar Bear
and I am 34.

you really need to work on your English tenses. you "were" 34. once. 21 years ago ...


grin ..... I never thought that this discussion will be great, anyway what I said before? Hmm what if I have more than 1 husband? laugh
_________________________
" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#38635 - 16 Dec 06 03:26 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
Jazz Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 9
Loc: Earth
Quoting: Polar Bear
Jazz,

I BET you are a woman.......




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#38636 - 16 Dec 06 03:32 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
Jazz Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 9
Loc: Earth
Quoting: Polar Bear
Jazz,

I BET you are a woman.......


How sure?

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#38637 - 16 Dec 06 03:35 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
Jazz Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 9
Loc: Earth
Quoting: Polar Bear
Excess, I am proof that the rgumet is bullshit. I shagged 134 girls in 5 years after my divorce. I have photos, emails, SMS, and my pubic hair colelction to prove it. smile smile smile

and I am 34.

Average age on this site is about 60.


Yeah right!

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#38638 - 16 Dec 06 03:40 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Jazz]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Jazz, up to you honey.......

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#61547 - 19 Sep 07 14:37 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
kenyeung Moderator Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 16 Apr 07
Posts: 2374
Loc: Indonesia
And now for more of the same...

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#61548 - 19 Sep 07 14:53 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: kenyeung]
Capt. Mainwaring Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 16 Aug 06
Posts: 3225
Loc: here
Quoting: kenyeung
And now for more of the same...


Jazz can't be all bad - he/she thinks that Hilton is a waste of a wank - good enough for me
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I also made a vegetarian version,with tempe and tofu chunks for myself and others.Get over it.
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