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#38436 - 13 Dec 06 12:04 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
it's all in the Exegesis (interpretation of religious texts). They banged that guy up in East Java for daring to translate the Koran into Indonesian. The argument being that translation can lead to deviation of meaning. But all language (foreign or not) is bound by subjective interpretation and subject to the endless cahin of signification (as Post Structuralists say). If I look up a word in the dictionary what do I get? - More words. Look each of those words up - more words again. Language is slippery and it's meaning can never be restricted to THE word (of God).

Put this in contxt and we see that how the meaning of religious quotations are manipulated by those with their own more earthly interests in mind.

I found out today that the prophet (Peas be upon him)actually prevented his sister in law from becoming a second wife. "I'm not having this" he thought "This second wife thing is for a time of war to save widows from oblivion - not so that a married bloke can get a sexier piece of ass" - It's in the Koran, but we don't hear it do we? Selective quotations taken out of context can be taken to mean anything despite protestations that they are "The word of God" - This is (only one) of the great dangers of monotheistic religions
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#38438 - 13 Dec 06 12:21 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Roy's Hair]
Patung Offline
Member++

Registered: 11 Mar 06
Posts: 234
Loc: Indonesia
According to somebody who comments on my site the Quran says:

marry more than one if there are widows (during wartime, not divorcees) and your'e worried about what will become of their children, but only do it if you can be fair to them,....... but you can't be fair to them, it's impossible.

Which would seem to mean just don't do it, except perhaps in extreme circumstances. The hadith though differ from this.
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#38441 - 13 Dec 06 13:40 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Patung]
Roy's Hair Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 08 Nov 06
Posts: 3974
Loc: jakarta
and loe God spake unto the people and sayeth, "Get thy knickers off".
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#38446 - 13 Dec 06 14:18 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Patung]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Quoting: patung
According to somebody who comments on my site the Quran says:

marry more than one if there are widows (during wartime, not divorcees) and your'e worried about what will become of their children, but only do it if you can be fair to them,....... but you can't be fair to them, it's impossible.

Which would seem to mean just don't do it, except perhaps in extreme circumstances. The hadith though differ from this.


So what is it: selfishness or benevolence that drives men to marry more than one woman where it is permitted, like in Indonesia? If a foreign man comes to Indonesia and takes advantage of this possibility, what is he doing?

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#38475 - 14 Dec 06 01:42 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: xsbir
So what is it: selfishness or benevolence that drives men to marry more than one woman where it is permitted, like in Indonesia? If a foreign man comes to Indonesia and takes advantage of this possibility, what is he doing?


so, how many foreign men do you know who "take advantage of this possibility"?
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#38477 - 14 Dec 06 02:10 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
rainman Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 19
Loc: Indonesia


It's never wise to discuss and debate on Religious Issue, especially on the net for all to see and in the largest Muslim country in the world.

Cheers

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#38478 - 14 Dec 06 02:17 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: rainman]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quoting: rainman


It's never wise to discuss and debate on Religious Issue, especially on the net for all to see and in the largest Muslim country in the world.

Cheers


I agree rainman. But we have to do many things that are unwise in life. Developing an atomic bomb was unwise.

I would rather re-educate Muslims via discussion and debate than flatten them with bombs....


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#38479 - 14 Dec 06 02:22 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
Gren Offline
Member

Registered: 24 Oct 06
Posts: 21
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: rainman
It's never wise to discuss and debate on Religious Issue, especially on the net for all to see and in the largest Muslim country in the world.Cheers

Luckily for us, JakChat.com is physically located outside of Indonesia, so we are free to discuss important matters free from intimidation from terrorists.

Wise muslims are of course always welcome on JakChat and can say whatever they like without being persecuted. In fact, most of JakChat.com members are Muslim.

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#38482 - 14 Dec 06 02:28 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: rainman]
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quoting: rainman


It's never wise to discuss and debate on Religious Issue, especially on the net for all to see and in the largest Muslim country in the world.

Cheers


I appreciate your concern for us to be "wise", but I strongly disagree with your suggestion to quit discussing religious issues. Welcome to the REAL World, the modern world. We don't subscribe to all that Pancasila, New Order, Bhinnekka Ika Tunggal b.s., nor will we be intimidated by it.

Religion, specifically iSlam, is part of the real world and is causing a lot of problems in the world today. If we sweep it under the carpet and everyone remains blissfully ignorant, we'd achieve nothing.

Discussing and debating provokes thought. Thought provokes new, creative ideas. New, creative ideas help people and societies make progress.

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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#38483 - 14 Dec 06 02:31 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: xsbir
So what is it: selfishness or benevolence that drives men to marry more than one woman where it is permitted, like in Indonesia? If a foreign man comes to Indonesia and takes advantage of this possibility, what is he doing?


so, how many foreign men do you know who "take advantage of this possibility"?


I don't know any, so that's why i pose my questions here.
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#38487 - 14 Dec 06 02:57 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
"But we have to do many things that are unwise in life. Developing an atomic bomb was unwise.

I would rather re-educate Muslims via discussion and debate than flatten them with bombs...."

"Discussing and debating provokes thought. Thought provokes new, creative ideas. New, creative ideas help people and societies make progress."

Yup.....

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(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#38489 - 14 Dec 06 03:05 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: xsbir
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: xsbir
So what is it: selfishness or benevolence that drives men to marry more than one woman where it is permitted, like in Indonesia? If a foreign man comes to Indonesia and takes advantage of this possibility, what is he doing?

so, how many foreign men do you know who "take advantage of this possibility"?

I don't know any, so that's why i pose my questions here.

well, i know of only one foreigner who has more than one wife. and he seems to be a normal, happy chap. wives/children seem happy enough, too. is that a problem??
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#38491 - 14 Dec 06 03:16 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
"But we have to do many things that are unwise in life. Developing an atomic bomb was unwise.

I would rather re-educate Muslims via discussion and debate than flatten them with bombs...."

"Discussing and debating provokes thought. Thought provokes new, creative ideas. New, creative ideas help people and societies make progress."

Yup.....

And Mr.Rainman....of course you know that always be two sides of thing or whatever it is and yes Islam had two face worst and better and me as a Moslem talking here and I don't mean to be the good one.... All people, as a group or as individuals, are unique and I said here that I am tired with the extrimist, the orthodox and hypocritical one.....and some of moderates Moslem have done to abandon rigid, oppressive, and exploitative dogma for the nurturing expanse of liberty.It's slavery of the mind. So I think thanks to Kuku that open for some kind of discussion like important issues whether talk about SEX video of Dangdut singer and the member House of Representative.



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" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#38509 - 14 Dec 06 04:17 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Macan Tutul]
rainman Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 19
Loc: Indonesia

OK Guys, I rest my case..... It's not legal to discuss this subject in my country.


U should know where that is.. lolz


Edited by rainman (14 Dec 06 04:19)

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#38510 - 14 Dec 06 04:20 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: rainman]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
well, it's just as well then that JakChat.com lives in vancouver ...
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#38511 - 14 Dec 06 04:22 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Jazz Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 9
Loc: Earth
I am wondering the "happy enough" wives' education & social background.
Don't think any wife in world would really sincerely share her husband to another man, not in indo, not in arab, not in china, nowhere! and..... vice verca!

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#38513 - 14 Dec 06 04:25 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Jazz]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quoting: Jazz
I am wondering the "happy enough" wives' education & social background.

three are uni grads (2 UGM, 1 purwokerto), and 1 is SMP.

is that good enough?
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#38518 - 14 Dec 06 05:05 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Macan Tutul Offline
Pujangga Muda

Registered: 02 Dec 05
Posts: 1502
Loc: Jungle and cage ;)
Kuku the one and only who had more than 1 wife in this earth who become my hero wink
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" Don't be shy with yourself, you have lots of talent without you notice....that's human, just be who you are."

(Memoirs of 3/3/2007)

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#38556 - 14 Dec 06 13:42 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Macan Tutul]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Quoting: Macan Tutul
Kuku the one and only who had more than 1 wife in this earth who become my hero wink


Well, if it's Kuku the one foreigner who has more than one wife in this country, then I have just have one sincere question for him: why? Divide the question into two parts: what's the motive for the man; what's the motive for the women? I'd really like to know.
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#38568 - 14 Dec 06 23:34 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
The "motives" are exactly the same as for (apparently) monogamous relationships.

i ask you: what is the movtivation behind male bules going to sleazy pubs and bars every night of the week in search of nubile female flesh? (no, i'm not *just* talking about you, dilli! wink )

and what is the motivation behind all these females offering their flesh to said male? (no, it's not *all* about money! smile many very much like what they do!)

frankly, i'm extremely suspicious of males who claim to be monogamous. it ain't natural.
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#38573 - 15 Dec 06 02:33 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
xsbir Offline
Member+

Registered: 29 Oct 06
Posts: 75
Loc: The Big Durian
Well, what exactly are those motives? It seems to me that people enter into a monogamous marriage precisely for the exclusivity that the institution provides. This exclusivity and lifelong commitment to one person foster mutual trust and security that don't seem possible in polygamous relationships.

I've never been polygamous, so what do I know? When I was single I had multiple relationships, sometimes at the same time. The complexities and insecurity inherent in multiple relationships led me to want to marry one woman.

Not all male bules are "going to sleazy pubs and bars every night of the week in search of nubile female flesh." Those that are obviously by definition are not in monogamous marriages. Ditto for the females "offering their flesh." I concede that some married men play around, but how many married perek do you know?

Monogamy may not be natural, but we're not living in the jungle anymore. We have all kinds of laws and rules that we follow in order to live in civilization. Those committed to a monogamous marriage follow its rules.

To paraphrase a post above: why would a woman want to share a husband with other women?


Edited by xsbir (15 Dec 06 02:34)
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#38577 - 15 Dec 06 03:22 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: xsbir]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
You can share my women, but leave my Porsche alone.....

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#38579 - 15 Dec 06 03:36 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: Polar Bear]
chewwyUK Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 14 Sep 06
Posts: 2392
Loc: Jakarta
Well I have never been married so I am no expert but it seems to me the main reason people get married is because they dont want to end up old and alone. It is not easy to just be with the one person for the rest of your life ... just take a look at the divorce rates. IMHO the decision should be a personal choice. If the guy and the wives and happy with the situation then why should anybody else care?

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Edit Reason: taste

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#38584 - 15 Dec 06 03:48 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: KuKuKaChu]
Jazz Offline
Member

Registered: 14 Dec 06
Posts: 9
Loc: Earth
Quoting: KuKuKaChu
Quoting: Jazz
I am wondering the "happy enough" wives' education & social background.

three are uni grads (2 UGM, 1 purwokerto), and 1 is SMP.

is that good enough?


What a great life! 3 admin assistants & 1 housekeeper! Wondering if you can have such "facility" in wherever you are from.

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#38586 - 15 Dec 06 03:58 Re: ANT/Indonesia mulls expanding ban on polygamy [Re: chewwyUK]
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quoting: chewwyUK
Well I have never been married so I am no expert but it seems to me the main reason people get married is because they dont want to end up old and alone. It is not easy to just be with the one person for the rest of your life ... just take a look at the divorce rates. IMHO the decision should be a personal choice. If the guy and the wives and happy with the situation then why should anybody else care?



Chewwy, that "Old and Lonely" crap is spread by women.

single guys are a scarce commodity at any age. Stay single, you wont be lonely!!!!!

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