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#30780 - 26 Jun 06 13:37 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Mari Alkatri is a muslim?? well, i didn't know that ... but then, i tend to switch off when it comes to East Timor. it must be rather lonely being a muslim in a place like that, where tribalism still rules. that he would be responsive to "outside assistance" sounds plausible.
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#30781 - 26 Jun 06 13:57 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
His full name is Mari Bin Amude Alkatiri.

And then there is this from the BBC bio on Alkatiri:

"The descendant of Yemeni settlers, his brother is the leader of Dili's Islamic community - a
minority in the predominantly Catholic country - and Mari Alkatiri himself is a practising Muslim."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1989267.stm

Here is an interesting article from Republika:

http://www.republika.co.id/koran_detail.asp?id=252534&kat_id=43

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#30782 - 26 Jun 06 14:08 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Alkatiri has just announced within the last hour that he will step down!
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#30783 - 26 Jun 06 14:12 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by riccardo:
Some of my sources in Dili and elsewhere tell me that it is "quite possible" that the TNI "has got to Alkatiri -- appealing to him as 'Islamic brothers'".
On the other hand, the Catholic Church has probably got to everyone else.

Lets not loose sight of the fact that Mari Alkatiri was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED.

Once again Australian troops are going to enforce Catholic rule on Timor. Fuck me I hope the Pope pays for all of this……

Democracy. A fine thing until it comes up against ANY Religion.

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#30784 - 26 Jun 06 14:20 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
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Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Bear in mind that just as Islamic Extremists sit in the shadows of Timor, the Catholic Church are also up to their armpits. The have enormous power. Far Far greater than you could imagine. They get people elected into political parties here in Australia, they influence voters. They drive agendas.

Alkatiri has been forced to resign by pressure from the Catholic Church.

I have seen the Catholics first hand, preaching hatred from the pulpit. The only good one has a 5.56 hole through the head.

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#30785 - 26 Jun 06 14:25 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
Quote:
Originally posted by riccardo:
Some of my sources in Dili and elsewhere tell me that it is "quite possible" that the TNI "has got to Alkatiri -- appealing to him as 'Islamic brothers'".


On the other hand, the Catholic Church has probably got to everyone else.

Right you are PB, the Rebulika (Jakarta-based Muslim-oriented paper) article I linked above says exactly the same thing about the catholics' machinations against him -- Maybe Mr. K would be so kind as to give us a good translation.
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#30786 - 26 Jun 06 14:28 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
So why are we removing a democratically elected leader?

Under whose authority? (other than the fucking Pope)

I smell a Rat, and it isn’t the one wearing a kilt…..

International Politics: If you don’t succeed, go back, overthrow what the people wanted and start again.

This stinks.

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#30787 - 26 Jun 06 14:37 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
the republika article certainly mentions catholic pressure against Alkatiri, but it goes on to accuse australia of being behind pressure for his removal, because he is a known-anti-australian. australia wants to remove him so that east timor can become its stepping stone into asia. usual nationalist bile.
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#30788 - 26 Jun 06 14:38 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
The Australian — NewsIt's a shambles and Alkatiri will fight
COMMENT
Mark Dodd
June 22, 2006
THERE is no argument; Mari Alkatiri has to go.
The Prime Minister is deeply unpopular and loathed by the influential Catholic Church, which represents more than 90per cent of East Timor's one million people.

But be warned: Alkatiri is a fighter and he will not go down without a struggle.

And evidence that his lieutenants allegedly armed sympathetic civilians to enforce his Government's writ point to dangers ahead.

Is he corrupt? As revealed in The Australian last year, his brother, Bader Alkatiri, was given a monopoly weapons import licence by the Government. Critics complained that parliament was not consulted and were promptly told by the ruling party to shut up.

Alkatiri's leadership style was worryingly autocratic for an emerging democracy and, in the words of a World Bank report, was growing increasingly out of touch with the people.

In recent years, he was no friend of a free and unencumbered media. East Timorese newspapers and reporters critical of his policies were threatened with closure or defamation proceedings.

But Australian diplomats liked him. A former Australian ambassador to Dili once told me that, faced with a dearth of suitably qualified public administrators, Alkatiri was well briefed and his political antennae finely tuned to deal with the fraught Timor Sea oil and gas negotiations.

And what to make of his mooted replacement - Nobel peace prize laureate and present Foreign Minister Jose Ramos Horta?

Ramos Horta already has a lot on his hands, having just added to his impressive portfolio the title of Defence Minister.

There may be questions on his commitment to the job and his people. Barely a month ago, Ramos Horta was trumpeting his credentials as the next replacement for UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan.

Out of the shambles that is East Timor, only one man has emerged with his credibility intact - President Xanana Gusmao.
It is worth noting that the Australian Newspaper is a well known Catholic mouthpiece. It wets itself with pleasure (and has a four page spread) if the Pope visits, and takes every opportunity to denigrate the Queen of Australia.

It takes every opportunity to push an Australian Republic, and regularly attacks the UK.

I was not surprised to read this crap.

Incidentally, did I get to vote for the Pope?

I think the guy who shot the last one should have been given a knighthood by the Queen.

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#30789 - 26 Jun 06 14:40 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Quote:
Originally posted by KuKuKaChu:
the republika article certainly mentions catholic pressure against Alkatiri, but it goes on to accuse australia of being behind pressure for his removal, because he is a known-anti-australian. australia wants to remove him so that east timor can become its stepping stone into asia. usual nationalist bile.
Which makes sense if you realise the extent of Catholic power in Australia……

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#30790 - 26 Jun 06 14:41 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Personally I would dedicate my life to helping Bin Laden if it meant destroying the Roman Catholic Church.

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#30791 - 26 Jun 06 15:04 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
The people of East Timor overwhelmingly elected Xanana Gusmao as president in a direct vote and his party, Fretilin, was

the largest vote-getter. The Fretilin execs (not the general populace) then appointed Alkatiri as PM, which most

commentators thought was a political move to appease predominantly Muslim Indonesia. Xanana's policy focus over the

last 4 years has been to reconcile with Jakarta.

Under E. Timor constitutional law, there is no simple way to "remove" the PM without creating a constitutional crisis, so the

only feasible way was to urge him to voluntarily step down -- which just happened an hour ago.

I feel truly distressed and saddened for the people I know there. I sure hope they can repair the damage and get on with

nation building.
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#30792 - 26 Jun 06 16:08 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
The population of Australia don’t elect John Howard as PM. I didn’t vote for Maggie Thatcher as PM. They are also appointed by the elected members of the parliament.


Alkatiri was elected by a portion of the populace, and appointed PM by the parliament.

This is the Westminster democratic system.

KuKu can doubtless point to another such constitutional crisis when an elected PM was removed by a constitutional head. They are still arguing about that one……..

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#30793 - 26 Jun 06 16:25 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
KuKu can doubtless point to another such constitutional crisis when an elected PM was removed by a constitutional head. They are still arguing about that one……..
WE WANT GOUGH! WE WANT GOUGH! WE WANT GOUGH! WE WANT GOUGH! ...

"may well we say 'god save the queen', because nothing will save the governor-general!"
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KuKuKaChu: dangerously too sophisticated

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#30794 - 26 Jun 06 16:35 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
KuKuKaChu Moderator Offline
Pooh Bah

Registered: 09 Oct 05
Posts: 10790
Loc: Centre of the Universe
Quote:
Originally posted by KuKuKaChu:
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
KuKu can doubtless point to another such constitutional crisis when an elected PM was removed by a constitutional head. They are still arguing about that one……..
WE WANT GOUGH! WE WANT GOUGH! WE WANT GOUGH! WE WANT GOUGH! ...

"may well we say 'god save the queen', because nothing will save the governor-general!"
this, of course, was said on the steps of the (old) parliament house on the 11th of November, 1975. on the 12th of December, 32 days later, indonesia invaded east timor, exploiting the political chaos in australia.

so, the blame for this whole east timor mess should really be shunted home to one man: john kerr.
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#30795 - 26 Jun 06 16:43 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
riccardo Offline
Pujangga

Registered: 12 Oct 05
Posts: 2195
Loc: Jakarta
Quote:
Originally posted by KuKuKaChu:
the republika article certainly mentions catholic pressure against Alkatiri, but it goes on to accuse australia of being behind pressure for his removal, because he is a known-anti-australian. australia wants to remove him so that east timor can become its stepping stone into asia. usual nationalist bile.
One thing I find most intriguing is the fact that Alkatiri was, for the first few years in office, adamantly pressing for a UN tribunal to nail all the RI generals. And RI media and nationalists were reviling him as a 'traitor and bad Muslim'...

THEN suddenly about a year ago nary a word from him about tribunals or justice.

AND NOW he is being defended by RI nationalists!

curiouser and curiouser, I say...
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Just here proffering my pearls to swine, my throat to wolves and my trousers to the flagpole.

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#30796 - 26 Jun 06 21:02 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Clift N. Anthony Offline
Member+

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 40
Loc: Mama Roma's
Tribunals, shmoonals I read the Brooklyn Tribunal every morning and they dont ever mispell curious -- haa haa smart guy.
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#30797 - 26 Jun 06 22:26 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
branmac Offline
Member+

Registered: 21 May 06
Posts: 84
Loc: Australia
OK Alkatiri is gone. can we talk more about Clit .. sorry Clint and his mis spelled name. He has more hair on his face than my ex wifes Clint..
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#30798 - 26 Jun 06 22:33 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
I am sorry, I misstyped it as Clunt before.

My kb is ucked up.

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#30799 - 26 Jun 06 22:37 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
branmac Offline
Member+

Registered: 21 May 06
Posts: 84
Loc: Australia
what's with the L in clunt. Must be the word that you say when you miss out.. Oh L oh L I didn't get any clunt tonite.. OK no more smut. He may be a real nice clunt
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#30800 - 27 Jun 06 02:34 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Clift N. Anthony Offline
Member+

Registered: 27 Jun 06
Posts: 40
Loc: Mama Roma's
Darn right I'm nice, youz dont know the half of it, but gawd youz cant spell.. my name is Clift N. Anthony and I'm a an international singing sensation. If timor wants to be free, then let em free. I let my cat free last week.
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#30801 - 27 Jun 06 04:44 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Embattled East Timor PM resigns

East Timor's Premier Mari Alkatiri has resigned from his job in the wake of mounting pressure.
President Xanana Gusmao accepted the decision with immediate effect.

Mr Alkatiri had been widely blamed for triggering recent violence in the capital, Dili, because of his decision to sack 600 soldiers.

While the ruling party, Fretilin, continued to back the prime minister, President Gusmao urged him to quit, as did thousands of street protesters.

"I declare I am ready to resign from my position as prime minister," Mr Alkatiri told reporters at a news conference in Dili on Monday.

"Assuming my own share of responsibility for the crisis affecting our country, I am determined not to contribute to any deepening of the crisis," he said.


Wrong kind of leader

A few hours afterwards, Mr Gusmao said he had accepted a resignation letter from Mr Alkatiri.

Thousands of people who had gathered in Dili to call for the prime minister to quit began to celebrate, banging drums and beeping car horns.

"I think this decision is acceptable for everyone," said one of the demonstrators, Augustino.

Australian Prime Minister John Howard also welcomed the news, saying it was "evidence we are moving to the resolution of the issue".

Losing support

Ever since Mr Alkatiri made the decision to sack 600 disgruntled soldiers in March, his critics have urged him to resign.

Gun battles between the rebel soldiers and those loyal to the government then broke out, with machete-wielding youths forcing thousands to flee their homes in fear.

The unrest turned into East Timor's worst violence since it voted for independence from Indonesia in 1999, and led to the young nation asking foreign peacekeepers to come to its aid.

As well as blaming him for triggering the violence, Mr Alkatiri's opponents also allege that he formed a hit squad to kill his political rivals - a charge he firmly denies.

But despite the enormous pressure on him, from important donor countries and even from East Timor's popular president, the prime minister had - until Monday - adamantly refused to step down.

It is unclear what caused him to change his mind.

The resignation on Sunday of the popular foreign minister, Jose Ramos Horta, was undoubtedly a blow. But last week Mr Alkatiri had stood firm against a much more serious resignation threat from President Gusmao himself - a threat the president later rescinded.

There has been no indication so far of who will succeed Mr Alkatiri. Fretilin will select his replacement.

But according to the BBC's South East Asia correspondent, Jonathan Head, Mr Alkatiri's departure should make the task of stabilising East Timor easier, although the country will need significant international assistance for months, or even years, ahead.

A veteran of East Timor's independence movement, Mari Alkatiri spent the 24 years of Indonesian occupation in exile in Mozambique.

He is credited with skilfully negotiating with Australia over East Timor's rights to oilfields in the Timor Sea, but he is also viewed by many Timorese as a cold and arrogant politician.


He has long been indifferent to his own unpopularity, but in the current chaos the country needs a less divisive leader

The BBC's Joanathan Head

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5116022.stm
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#30802 - 27 Jun 06 04:47 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
E Timor's 'wrong kind of leader'

By Jonathan Head
South East Asia correspondent, BBC News

It was with a characteristically unemotional performance that Mari Alkatiri announced the end of his - and East Timor's - first prime ministerial term.

"Having reflected deeply on the present situation prevailing in the country, assuming my own share of responsibility for the crisis, I am ready to resign from my position as prime minister," he told a press conference in Dili.

This, after weeks of pressure, during which he had repeatedly insisted his resignation would solve nothing, and had received the full backing of his party, Fretilin, which holds a majority of the seats in parliament.

So why the change of heart?

Mr Alkatiri referred to his desire to avoid a threatened resignation by President Xanana Gusmao - but that threat was made last week, and then withdrawn, so it is difficult to understand why it would have changed his mind now.

More likely it was the continued discussions with his colleagues in government on how to get East Timor out of the mess it is in that persuaded Mr Alkatiri to go.

He has long been indifferent to his own unpopularity, but in the current chaos the country needs a less divisive leader.

There was jubilation over the decision across the capital, Dili, and probably in many other areas of East Timor.

Mr Alkatiri has become a hate-figure, blamed for everything that has gone wrong in the country, and it was hard to see how rebuilding confidence and stability after the traumatic events of the past few weeks could start while he remained in office.

But was he really so bad?

Brusque manner

You hear many complaints about Mr Alkatiri, some of them obviously unjust.

I have often heard young people complain that he is a Muslim, as though that is a crime in a supposedly democratic and tolerant country.

They also accuse him of being a communist, because of his left-wing views and his long years living in Mozambique.

But these may at times have served East Timor well. His instinctive mistrust of Western help led him to drive a very hard bargain with Australia over East Timor's rights to oil and gas in the Timor Sea, helped by his skills as a negotiator.

It is unlikely anyone else could have done as well for the country.

He also has a deep personal commitment to the sustainable development of his country, and has tried hard to avoid too much aid dependency - ideas formed during his African exile.

Much of his unpopularity is due to his brusque, business-like manner.

He is an intellectual, impatient with people who express poorly thought-out ideas.

He has never seemed able to empathise with the suffering experienced by much of the population during the Indonesian occupation, or to find the right words to comfort those who are often unable to articulate what they feel about those years.

By contrast, President Gusmao is a master of the art of healing. With a few simple words, or just a hug, he can move crowds to tears.


Shortage of talent

The two men who have been running the country since independence could hardly have more different styles, and they have had a very uneasy relationship with each other.

Much of that goes back to Mr Gusmao's distrust of the Fretilin party, which he blames for harsh treatment of its rivals during the bitter struggle against Indonesian rule.


Mr Alkatiri is a consummate party man - Fretilin reaffirmed its backing for him three times in recent weeks, the last time less than 24 hours before he resigned.

The party remained loyal to the end, but he was arguably the wrong kind of leader for a country as traumatised as East Timor.


Crowds have been calling for Mr Alkatiri to go for weeks

More serious are the charges against Mr Alkatiri of corruption, and abuses of power.

Some of these will now be examined by an internationally-supervised investigation, as East Timor's infant judiciary is not up to the job.

Some corruption is perhaps inevitable, given the traditions of patronage and money-politics that prevail elsewhere in the region, but the charges of abusing his power are more serious.

A documentary by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation's Four Corners programme claims to have documentary evidence that Mr Alkatiri tacitly approved of the distribution of police weapons to civilians - a charge that has already led to the arrest of former Interior Minister Rogerio Lobato, at one time an ally of the prime minister.

Mr Alkatiri has denied the charges, and the prosecutor-general says he has not yet uncovered any evidence against him.

Certainly the murky events leading up to and after the fateful decision by Mr Alkatiri to endorse sacking more than a third of the army earlier this year need more investigation.

The fact that he was re-elected at the Fretilin party congress last month by a show of hands, rather by a secret ballot, does not reflect well on his democratic values.

But it is also worth remembering that East Timor has few capable leaders.

Education levels are among the world's lowest, and the long years of conflict under Indonesia's occupation, and Indonesia's chaotic withdrawal in 1999, left few local people with experience of government.

Mari Alkatiri is among the best they have. The country can ill-afford the loss of his abilities.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5117510.stm
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#30803 - 27 Jun 06 06:51 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Polar Bear Offline
Pujangga Besar

Registered: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 6177
Notice the very different bias (or lack of it) in the non Catholic BBC report......

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#30804 - 27 Jun 06 06:57 Re: CNN/Australia rushes troops to Timor
Magpie Offline
Member**

Registered: 29 Mar 06
Posts: 1306
Loc: The Toon
Quote:
Originally posted by The One and Only Polar Bear:
Notice the very different bias (or lack of it) in the non Catholic BBC report......
Good old BBC. This is why i post their news reports here, I find that I can gain all the knowledge in the world, just like I used to as a kid. Some people have their favourite news resources...this is mine everyday. cool
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